Learned Helplessness

D

DVDA

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In 1965, Martin Seligman conducted a very well-documented experiment based on Pavlovian conditioning. He placed a dog in a shuttlebox (a box with 2 areas separated by a low fence that the dog could easily jump over), and would administer a harmless electric shock to the dog. The dog would always jump to the other side of the shuttlebox.

He then restrained the dog in one compartment of the shuttlebox, and administered the shock. The dog tried to jump to the other side, but couldn't. He repeatedly administered shocks, until the dog gave up trying to escape, and just whimpered. After removing the restraint, and repeatedly administering shocks, the dog would not try to jump to the other side of the shuttlebox, even though it could if it tried. It would just lie in the corner of the box and whimper. The effect is called "learned helplessness".

Everytime I hear about "government reforms" and "colloqiums" I can't help but feel that nothing is ever gonna change. How many of you feel this way about our current ADSL situation? Is this forum just the whimpering of helpless dogs?
 
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If I find that Martin Seligman is still alive, I will personally throttle him, and apply electrical shocks to his testicles.

How's that for "pent up agression?"

By the way, this forum brought together a group that took Sentech to task, and got some results. Without talk and a place to meet, this action would never have happened. This forum took Telkom to task, and they had to explain themselves in front of ICASA. The outcome is still to be determined.

Hardly helpless whimpering. Yes, this forum can be a royal bitch-fest at times but such is the nature of people. At the very least it's participants get satisfaction that they're not alone in their situation.

Let's take a look.

- Broadband Conference coming up.
- MyADSL Broadband report is becoming a de facto standard.
- The Media identifies MyADSL as a consumer/lobby group.
- Telkom dragged in front of ICASA
- Sentech forced to improve services.
- RPM has credibility interviewed on radio, television.

The list of MyADSL achievements go on.

To me, it seems like this dog barks.
 
i know i feel this way. I could call people, harass them everyday, make their lives difficult... I just feel that if sit here and do nothing will have the same effect...

:(
 
Yea, I was kinda referring to what guided1 says: loads of people on this forum only bitch and moan - it is the vast minority that have achieved what TheRodent outlined above - Antowan, rpm, debbie2, peapod, ic and a few others.

How many of the readers/members of this board actually mailed ICASA about Nov1.
How many actually called ICASA?
How many complain to the Department of Communications?
How many complained to their local municipal authorities or party members?

Probably less than half. Buy why? Because they feel like helpless dogs?

I really don't want to make this into a negative thread about bashing users - rather, I hope it might challenge them to do more. I'm primarily interested to see how many people feel this way, as a psychological study. I greatly admire rpm and the other admins and commend all their achievements. What little progress this country has made in the last few years is largely as a result of their efforts.
 
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I cant agree with you DVDA... Some people have the resources and "know how" to take action, and others would rather just sit back quietly and provide verbal support and give their feedback. Either way they bring traffic to the website and spread the awareness of MyADSL and our shambled Telecoms industry. If we all had connections, and if we all could do something, trust me it would have been done along time ago.
 
I think moosag's hit it on the head. At the very least the traffic they bring, helps MyADSL support itsself, and gives them the opportunity to vent... Doing psychological studies of people on internet forums is pretty pointless in my view. You will find vastly different behaviour than in real life.

It's a terrible thing to feel cheated on your own :)
 
There is something that everyone can do. Just emailing ICASA once a week for instance, is not beyond anyone's power. Even talking to your friends and colleagues offline about Telkom and what they are doing to the country.

Noone is helpless or resourceless.
 
my problem is i want to do something but i dont know where to start and also once i start doing something... it feels like im pissing against the wind... ie ... i can't tell if its having any effect at all. Chances are its does have an effect.

I've had adsl twice now. 2 different place the first time it was quick and easy. this time it felt like an up hill battle. i phoned telkom.. i got the red tape... called a phone number, waited an hour... they put me through to another number... a few seconds later i was put through to the same number i called and waited another hour. shouted and screamed... then i heard about self install signed up for that... told me to go to my nearest office and collect some stuff. i went there and they told me that i didnt qualify for self-install.. i shouted and screamed... called a few more times and shouted and screamed... after all the shouting and screaming and being told that my installation has been escalated to high priority... it still took too months. Im a very calm and placid person... its takes a lot for me to shout and scream... and it takes a lot out of me too... and i feel after all of this... did the shouting and screaming do anything...?
 
moosag said:
Some people have the resources and "know how" to take action, and others would rather just sit back quietly and provide verbal support and give their feedback. Either way they bring traffic to the website and spread the awareness of MyADSL and our shambled Telecoms industry. If we all had connections, and if we all could do something, trust me it would have been done along time ago.
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I think the problem here is, in business or regulatory matters, credibility is derived from weight of numbers. If say 50% or even 25% of the broadband user base in S.A. actively complained or supported a complaint to the DoC, ICASA or Telkom, they would sit up and take it seriously.

Unfortunately myADSL is currently only a small enthusiast poweruser community on the fringe of a largely un-informed and dis-interested total user base. Basically the 'overclockers' of the SA broadband market.

And unfortunately its not getting any better. Telkom provisions more new ADSL lines in 1 month, than ppl join these forums in 4-6 months (estimate), so statistically myADSL's portion of the user base is declining every month.

That said the active members of myADSL (in the real world outside of these forums, as mentioned above) have done a great job of raising awareness in the industry through sheer tenacity. But awareness & discussion are one thing, while driving through real change is another and that requires some serious market weight.

Hopefully in time the levels of awareness in the general broadband populous will increase to a level where a greater portion will shout with one voice and real change can be achieved.
 
TheRoDent said:
Lotto is a tax on the stupid.
Click to expand...

Says the guy who has not won it yet. I guarantee you, you will sing a different tune once you are R6 million richer. ;)
 
The sad life we live

Not a lotto forum pplz plz.....

I think that DVDA has a valid point most of us are just wasting time and energy if its hate mailing telkom or spamming channels by uselessly ranting....

Really i am jsut out of highschool and still i realise how serious the Hardcapping will be to south-africans, people like me who just use dsl for personal reasons, business users, evryone who has dsl should stand up and fight the opression forced uppon us by telkom.

Fighting however does not meen hate mailing telkom (although its probably fun)
or spamming serious petitions ( just takes away the petitions credability). Fighting telkom should be done by supporting companies like Dotco and imploring organizations with the power to do something against telkom to support the general users. SO what i basically want to say is please guys be active and not stupid, if you have energy to waste on hatemails rather attempt to make a diference even if it is calling the ICASA on your very expensive telkom line and begging them (politely) to support our views.\


Thats it 4 me R4v:cool:
 
Now, let's say for instance, that instead of shocking the poor dog into a whimpering mass and recording his lack of action, your scientist took him by the collar and pulled, even dragged, him to the other side. Think he'd go? Probably. Maybe with a bit of scrabbling and back-peddling.

There are basically two kind of people here. The dogs who snarl and rage and bark, and the dogs who follow. Less of the former, more of the latter. That is not to say that the dogs who follow have no value. Their numbers lend weight and volume to the pack. We're not a bunch of lone wolves, each trying to bring this elephant down on his own: we're a pack.

I'd say a large number of the people here are like loaded guns just laying around waiting for someone to pick them up and pull the trigger. On our own, we have a lot of potential, but we need someone like an rpm to achieve that potential.

Like some of the other people in this thread, I'd say: Tell me what you want done, and I'll do it. You want me to mail ICASA? Tell me what to put in the e-mail and where to send it. Remind me to send it again every Monday with a BIG OL' POST in the forum. You wanted me to sign a petition? I did. All of them.

So, what's next?

Juice
 
guided1 said:
my problem is i want to do something but i dont know where to start and also once i start doing something... it feels like im pissing against the wind... ie ... i can't tell if its having any effect at all. Chances are its does have an effect.

I've had adsl twice now. 2 different place the first time it was quick and easy. this time it felt like an up hill battle. i phoned telkom.. i got the red tape... called a phone number, waited an hour... they put me through to another number... a few seconds later i was put through to the same number i called and waited another hour. shouted and screamed... then i heard about self install signed up for that... told me to go to my nearest office and collect some stuff. i went there and they told me that i didnt qualify for self-install.. i shouted and screamed... called a few more times and shouted and screamed... after all the shouting and screaming and being told that my installation has been escalated to high priority... it still took too months. Im a very calm and placid person... its takes a lot for me to shout and scream... and it takes a lot out of me too... and i feel after all of this... did the shouting and screaming do anything...?
Click to expand...

...it did manage to get your blood pressure up and take 10 years off your life...

I think a lot of us here feel the same way - it is hard when you don't have the know-how - we are kinda like silent helpers - whatever is mentioned on these boards is taken by the admins and used where needed, for the better of the ADSL community...

I do agree that we can all do more, an e-mail here, a phone call there, but it takes a while for people to learn about all that is going on and whom to contact - a lot of users only know the very basics of ADSL and are not comfortable ranting and raving at ICASA/ Telkom/ whoever, as they get the usual brush-off, and feel like tits - and if you don't have the info, it's difficult to fight back and not feel like a tit!

IMHO, this is what the MyADSL forum is about - gaining knowledge in order to fight these buggers at their own game...
 
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