Lowest achievable international latency.

AcidT said:
As a matter of interest....

If you are situated on the coast you will get the best possable latency in the country due to a shorter route that you have when connecting to the net. The best latencies will be in the Western Cape if you are connecting to Europe or the USA as we all know this is where the SAT2/3 cables land.

Connecting to Asia you will get better latency from Natal and specifically closer towards Mtunzini area where the SAFE cable lands.

Inland your average latency on ADSL to connect to Europe or Asia will be ± 200 - 300ms.
Click to expand...

This is not necessarily true. Even in Cape Town. Many routes in SA backtrack on themselves depending on where your ISP's IPC link is. For example, you could live in Cape Town and your ISP uses SAT3 but doesn't mean you have a direct link to SAT3 from your house. Your ISP's POP might be in Joburg, in which case your traffic to and from London could backtrack on itself like this:

Cape Town -> Johannesburg -> Cape Town -> London and vice versa.
 
deweyzeph said:
This is not necessarily true. Even in Cape Town. Many routes in SA backtrack on themselves depending on where your ISP's IPC link is. For example, you could live in Cape Town and your ISP uses SAT3 but doesn't mean you have a direct link to SAT3 from your house. Your ISP's POP might be in Joburg, in which case your traffic to and from London could backtrack on itself like this:

Cape Town -> Johannesburg -> Cape Town -> London and vice versa.
Click to expand...
To be fair, almost none of the ISPs do that...the only ones that does is: Neology and maybe 1 or 2 even smaller players. IS has IPC in JHB/DBN but uses east coast cables so they not doing that. Every other ISP that makes use of SAT3 are in CPT.
 
Tinuva said:
To be fair, almost none of the ISPs do that...the only ones that does is: Neology and maybe 1 or 2 even smaller players. IS has IPC in JHB/DBN but uses east coast cables so they not doing that. Every other ISP that makes use of SAT3 are in CPT.
Click to expand...
You're actually wrong about that, because it's not just the small players that do that kind of thing!
Mweb Business ADSL and Neotel's Cape Town Data Center does that...

So if I want to connect to someone in Cape Town, from our Stellenbosch office, then the traffic first goes to Johannesburg and then it comes back to Cape Town...

Here's my proof - from our server in the Neotel Cape Town Data Center to WAGE:
Code: 
 Host                                                Loss%   Snt   Last   Avg  Best  Wrst StDev
 1. 172.30.16.1                                       0.0%    12    0.2   0.2   0.2   0.3   0.0 <-- our server at the Neotel Data Center in Cape Town (Dieprivier to be exact)
 2. router-dieprivier-neotel.xxxxxxxxx.co.za          0.0%    11   22.1  22.2  22.0  22.8   0.2 <-- somewhere in Jhb, as you can see from the latency alone
 3. 41.160.0.244                                      0.0%    11   22.2  22.2  22.1  22.3   0.1
 4. 41.160.2.69                                       0.0%    11   22.7  22.5  22.4  22.7   0.1
 5. 196.43.25.137                                     0.0%    11   22.5  22.6  22.5  22.7   0.1
 6. 196.43.39.78                                      0.0%    11   45.0  44.9  44.7  45.8   0.3 <-- and back in Cpt again
 7. vl306.er.gw.cpt.za.wa.co.za                       0.0%    11   44.5  43.8  43.5  44.5   0.4 <!-- WAGE, which is based in Cape Town

From our server in the Neotel Cape Town Data Center to my Mweb home ADSL (also based in Stellenbosch):
Code: 
                                                       Packets               Pings
 Host                                                Loss%   Snt   Last   Avg  Best  Wrst StDev
 1. 172.30.16.1                                       0.0%     5    0.2   0.2   0.2   0.2   0.0
 2. router-dieprivier-neotel.xxxxxxxxx.co.za          0.0%     5   22.4  22.2  21.9  22.7   0.4
 3. 41.160.0.244                                      0.0%     5   22.1  22.2  22.1  22.3   0.1
 4. mweb-1.jinx.net.za                                0.0%     5   22.2  22.3  22.2  22.3   0.0 <-- JINX
 5. tengige0-2-0-0.vic-up-1.mweb.co.za                0.0%     5   24.8  24.5  23.7  25.0   0.5
 6. 196.22.169.46                                     0.0%     5   44.9  45.1  44.0  47.3   1.4
 7. vlan11.cpt-hscore-1.mweb.co.za                    0.0%     5   42.9  42.9  42.8  42.9   0.0
 8. te1-1-0.92.cpt-ipc-1.mweb.co.za                   0.0%     4   42.8  42.8  42.8  43.0   0.1
 9. ???
10. ???
11. 41-133-xxx-xx.dsl.mweb.co.za                      0.0%     4   54.5  54.3  54.0  54.6   0.3

From my Afrihost account at home (Stellenbosch) to my office's Mweb Business IP address:
Code: 
 Host                                              Loss%   Snt   Last   Avg  Best  Wrst StDev
 1. mikrotik                                        0.0%     4    0.9   0.9   0.9   1.0   0.0
 2. buffalo.tuis                                    0.0%     4    1.8   1.8   1.8   1.9   0.0
 3. 196-210-xxx-x.dynamic.isadsl.co.za              0.0%     4   10.9  11.4  10.9  11.8   0.5
 4. cdsl2-rba-vl2663.ip.isnet.net                   0.0%     4   36.1  35.4  34.1  37.1   1.4
 5. cdsl2-rba-vl150.ip.isnet.net                    0.0%     4   32.1  32.5  32.0  33.0   0.5
 6. 168.209.1.140                                   0.0%     4   32.8  32.8  32.3  33.8   0.7
 7. 196.26.0.10                                     0.0%     3   32.2  32.8  32.2  33.7   0.8
 8. mweb-1.jinx.net.za                              0.0%     3   34.7  34.5  34.4  34.7   0.1 <-- JINX
 9. tengige0-2-0-0.vic-up-1.mweb.co.za              0.0%     3   36.2  35.7  34.7  36.3   0.9
10. vl-11.vic-hscore-1.mweb.co.za                   0.0%     3   32.5  33.2  32.5  33.9   0.7
11. tengig-0-0-0.vic-lns-2.mweb.co.za               0.0%     3   32.6  33.2  32.6  33.6   0.5
12. 10.24.36.52                                     0.0%     3   68.7  68.8  68.7  69.1   0.2
13. server.xxxxxxxxx.co.za                          0.0%     3   58.6  59.1  58.6  59.4   0.4

... and since this is a thread regarding international latencies, I'll post a traceroute to www.bbc.co.uk too from our server at Neotel Cape Town Data Center:
Code: 
                                                       Packets               Pings
 Host                                                Loss%   Snt   Last   Avg  Best  Wrst StDev
 1. 172.30.16.1                                       0.0%     6    0.2   0.2   0.2   0.3   0.0
 2. router-dieprivier-neotel.xxxxxxxxx.co.za          0.0%     6   22.4  22.2  22.0  22.4   0.2
 3. 41.160.0.242                                      0.0%     6   22.3  22.2  22.1  22.4   0.1
 4. ix-0-3-0-0.tcore1.jso-johannesburg.as6453.net     0.0%     6   22.1  26.3  22.1  46.9  10.1 <-- Jhb once again
 5. if-4-1-1-0.tcore1.klt-capetown.as6453.net         0.0%     5  197.8 197.5 197.1 197.8   0.3 <-- and guess what, back to Cpt, before going to Lisbon
 6. if-0-3-1.core2.pv9-lisbon.as6453.net              0.0%     5  170.2 170.2 170.0 170.3   0.1
 7. if-0-0-0-2000.tcore1.pv9-lisbon.as6453.net        0.0%     5  198.4 198.4 198.3 198.6   0.1
 8. if-3-2.tcore1.sv8-highbridge.as6453.net           0.0%     5  196.2 196.3 196.1 196.7   0.2
 9. if-18-2.tcore2.l78-london.as6453.net              0.0%     5  197.2 197.3 197.2 197.5   0.1
10. if-2-2.tcore1.l78-london.as6453.net               0.0%     5  198.2 204.2 198.2 228.5  13.5
11. vlan704.icore1.ldn-london.as6453.net             25.0%     5  209.3 206.4 200.2 209.6   5.3
12. vlan533.icore1.ldn-london.as6453.net              0.0%     5  196.4 196.6 196.2 197.6   0.6
13. ae-14-51.car3.london1.level3.net                  0.0%     5  199.2 199.4 199.1 200.3   0.5
14. 195.50.90.190                                     0.0%     5  198.5 198.7 198.5 199.1   0.3
15. 212.58.238.169                                    0.0%     5  199.5 199.0 198.8 199.5   0.3
16. 212.58.239.58                                     0.0%     5  198.3 198.4 198.2 198.8   0.2
17. 212.58.251.44                                     0.0%     5  198.6 198.4 198.2 198.6   0.2
18. bbc-vip111.telhc.bbc.co.uk                        0.0%     5  199.2 199.3 198.8 199.6   0.3
 
Last edited:
Right, ok Neotel does it as well. But what did you expect from them when they took a how many years old network and then started adding patches here and there and now they probably have the most mixed network without proper planning of the routing.

But in my defense, I was talking about ADSL ISPs making use of IPC links, and Neotel doesn;t form part of that group.

SAIX had the same problem for us, we just asked them to fix it to prefer cape town peering points. 2 hours later it was fixed. If your network is set up properly, its as simple as changing metrics on 2 communities. I am guessing Neotel must have one of the worst BGP routing setups currently.

As for the IS trace, I was talking about international routing, not local routing, plus I mentioned they only have IPC in JHB/DBN.
 
Last edited:
Pada - Seems like you connect via Jhb (from Stellenbosch) and not via Cape Town :confused:

I suppose I answer my own question below
Neotel should route all that Cape Town bound traffic via CINX instead of JINX
Speedtest server to Web Africa - from plenty Neotel Fiber links reflects local connects
http://www.speedtest.net/result/1366577859.png

Web Africa routing possibly due to Telkom not peering locally hence Jhb hop to Jhb and back to Cpt
Pada said:
Here's my proof - from our server in the Neotel Cape Town Data Center to WAGE:
Code: 
 Host                                                Loss%   Snt   Last   Avg  Best  Wrst StDev
 1. 172.30.16.1                                       0.0%    12    0.2   0.2   0.2   0.3   0.0 <-- our server at the Neotel Data Center in Cape Town (Dieprivier to be exact)
 2. router-dieprivier-neotel.xxxxxxxxx.co.za          0.0%    11   22.1  22.2  22.0  22.8   0.2 <-- somewhere in Jhb, as you can see from the latency alone
 3. 41.160.0.244                                      0.0%    11   22.2  22.2  22.1  22.3   0.1
 4. 41.160.2.69                                       0.0%    11   22.7  22.5  22.4  22.7   0.1
 5. 196.43.25.137                                     0.0%    11   22.5  22.6  22.5  22.7   0.1
 6. 196.43.39.78                                      0.0%    11   45.0  44.9  44.7  45.8   0.3 <-- and back in Cpt again
 7. vl306.er.gw.cpt.za.wa.co.za                       0.0%    11   44.5  43.8  43.5  44.5   0.4 <!-- WAGE, which is based in Cape Town

From our server in the Neotel Cape Town Data Center to my Mweb home ADSL (also based in Stellenbosch):

Code: 
                                                       Packets               Pings
 Host                                                Loss%   Snt   Last   Avg  Best  Wrst StDev
 1. 172.30.16.1                                       0.0%     5    0.2   0.2   0.2   0.2   0.0
 2. router-dieprivier-neotel.xxxxxxxxx.co.za          0.0%     5   22.4  22.2  21.9  22.7   0.4
 3. 41.160.0.244                                      0.0%     5   22.1  22.2  22.1  22.3   0.1
 4. mweb-1.jinx.net.za                                0.0%     5   22.2  22.3  22.2  22.3   0.0 <-- JINX
 5. tengige0-2-0-0.vic-up-1.mweb.co.za                0.0%     5   24.8  24.5  23.7  25.0   0.5
 6. 196.22.169.46                                     0.0%     5   44.9  45.1  44.0  47.3   1.4
 7. vlan11.cpt-hscore-1.mweb.co.za                    0.0%     5   42.9  42.9  42.8  42.9   0.0
 8. te1-1-0.92.cpt-ipc-1.mweb.co.za                   0.0%     4   42.8  42.8  42.8  43.0   0.1
 9. ???
10. ???
11. 41-133-xxx-xx.dsl.mweb.co.za                      0.0%     4   54.5  54.3  54.0  54.6   0.3
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Kilos:
Our Neotel Fiber Internet connection from our office goes through Cape Town, where as our Cape Town Data Center connections goes through Jhb, which is why the Data Center international latencies are 44ms higher (22ms for Cpt -> Jhb + 22ms for Jhb -> Cpt) than that of our office's latencies - 155ms vs 199ms.

I posted a traceroute to both WebAfrica and Mweb, to show you that its not a peering issue with WebAfrica.
Here's a trace route to www.google.co.za, which is hosted in Cape Town and not with Mweb or WebAfrica:
Code: 
                                       Packets               Pings
 Host                                Loss%   Snt   Last   Avg  Best  Wrst StDev
 1. 172.30.16.1                       0.0%     7    0.2   0.2   0.1   0.2   0.0 <-- Cpt Neotel Data Center
 2. router-dieprivier-neotel.xxxxxxx  0.0%     7   22.0  22.1  22.0  22.6   0.2 <-- Neotel Jhb
 3. 41.160.0.244                      0.0%     7   22.2  22.1  22.1  22.2   0.0 <-- Neotel Jhb
 4. 172.18.32.33                      0.0%     7   42.3  42.3  42.2  42.3   0.0 <-- Somewhere in Cpt
 5. google.cinx.net.za                0.0%     7   43.1  53.4  43.1 115.3  27.3
 6. 64.233.174.105                    0.0%     6   43.2  43.4  43.2  43.8   0.3
 7. 74.125.233.16                     0.0%     6   43.0  43.1  42.9  43.3   0.2

To show you how messed up their routing is... here's a trace route from the Data Center to our Stellenbosch office - both on Neotel:
Code: 
                                       Packets               Pings
 Host                                Loss%   Snt   Last   Avg  Best  Wrst StDev
 1. 172.30.16.1                       0.0%     9    0.2   0.2   0.2   0.3   0.0 <- Neotel Data Center Cpt
 2. router-dieprivier-neotel.xxxxxxx  0.0%     9   23.0  22.4  21.9  23.0   0.4 <- Jhb
 3. 41.164.12.20                      0.0%     9   43.8  43.8  43.7  43.8   0.0 <- Cpt
 4. server.xxxxxxxxx.co.za            0.0%     8   43.9  44.3  43.9  46.7   1.0 <- Stb
 
Last edited:
saffakanera said:
What is the lowest realistically achievable international latency we can ever hope to get here in South Africa?
Click to expand...
The theoretical minimum based on the speed of light and a straight line cable from Cape Town to London, would be about 64ms. Anything lower than that would violate the laws of physics.
However, undersea cables are probably between 1.5 and 2 times the straight line distance, so the realistic minimum is about 120ms. Add to that some latency for the ADSL line which is not optical but electrical, and the various routers/switches in between, and the figures quoted so far in this thread (153ms) will probably never get much better.
 
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