Lowest achievable international latency.

[saffakanera]

Hi guys,

What is the lowest realistically achievable international latency we can ever hope to get here in South Africa?

Best I have seen was 190ms to the UK, another question, why would EU latency to the States only be 80-90ms?

Is there a good technical explanation for these figures, and what can we do to improve it?

 

[Gtx Gaming]

This ping render that statement invalid

C:\Users\user>ping www.bbc.co.uk

Pinging www.bbc.net.uk [212.58.244.70] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 212.58.244.70: bytes=32 time=162ms TTL=47
Reply from 212.58.244.70: bytes=32 time=161ms TTL=47
Reply from 212.58.244.70: bytes=32 time=160ms TTL=47
Reply from 212.58.244.70: bytes=32 time=162ms TTL=47

Ping statistics for 212.58.244.70:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 160ms, Maximum = 162ms, Average = 161ms

 

[Pada]

Here's my office's (in Stellenbosch) latency to BBC:

$ ping www.bbc.co.uk -c 4
PING www.bbc.net.uk (212.58.244.69) 56(84) bytes of data.
64 bytes from bbc-vip114.telhc.bbc.co.uk (212.58.244.69): icmp_seq=1 ttl=46 time=155 ms
64 bytes from bbc-vip114.telhc.bbc.co.uk (212.58.244.69): icmp_seq=2 ttl=46 time=155 ms
64 bytes from bbc-vip114.telhc.bbc.co.uk (212.58.244.69): icmp_seq=3 ttl=46 time=155 ms
64 bytes from bbc-vip114.telhc.bbc.co.uk (212.58.244.69): icmp_seq=4 ttl=46 time=155 ms

--- www.bbc.net.uk ping statistics ---
4 packets transmitted, 4 received, 0% packet loss, time 3158ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 155.212/155.516/155.827/0.377 ms

 

[Tinuva]

This ping render that statement invalid

C:\Users\user>ping www.bbc.co.uk

Pinging www.bbc.net.uk [212.58.244.70] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 212.58.244.70: bytes=32 time=162ms TTL=47
Reply from 212.58.244.70: bytes=32 time=161ms TTL=47
Reply from 212.58.244.70: bytes=32 time=160ms TTL=47
Reply from 212.58.244.70: bytes=32 time=162ms TTL=47

Ping statistics for 212.58.244.70:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 160ms, Maximum = 162ms, Average = 161ms

Actually I think the OP is somewhere in Gauteng, which would make 190ms average the lowest, which is, 160ms from London to Cape Town, add another 30ms from Cape Town to Gauteng and you get the 190ms the OP has, which means, he technically is getting the same latency as you, with the added negative of inland backhaul latency added on the side.

160ms is SAT3 Latency + ADSL latency. From a Cape Town office one can easily achieve 153ms, most adsl lines add about 6-7ms.

 

[fragtion]

Pretty much what Tinuva said...

Lowest latencies I've seen are:
~120ms from Cape Town to Portugal (Lisbon) via Neotel
~120ms from Cape Town to Hong Kong via SAIX
~120ms from Cape Town to India (Mumbai) via TENET
~150ms from Cape Town to UK (London) via TENET/WebAfrica/Mweb/IS (SAT3?)

The bulk of these tests were done on unshaped datacenter backbone connections, so it's not really going to get any better than that. If someone tells you that they ping 50 to europe, or that new cables being laid will allow that, tell them they're wrong (because they are).

I've never seen pings to the U.S. (Miami/New York) any lower than about 250ms

Pings from Johannesburg are usually about 25-30ms higher than what they'd be from Cape Town.

EASSy and Seacom didn't really make any breakthroughs in terms of latency, because SAT3 is still a shorter route to Europe (EASSy/Seacom pings are usually always about 220ms or more from my experience)

Apparently WACS is going to bring latency by about 10-20ms better than SAT3, but we'll just have to wait and see - from what I can see it's going to be a longer cable than SAT3... Remember, it's not the SPEED CAPACITY of the line that determines latency (unless it's being shaped or congested), but the DISTANCE (speed of light)

 

[ichigo]

How do you guys get below 200 ms latency to oversees. I have tried every account and it is 200ms+

 

[Pada]

Merenwenrago, since you're in Pietermaritzburg, you can probably add 40ms to what we get with the same accounts in Cape Town.

I'm getting ~169ms with my Mweb & Afrihost accounts to www.bbc.co.uk from Stellenbosch, were as with my office's Neotel Fiber connection I'm getting a consistent 155ms.

Our latency from the Neotel Datacenter in Cape Town to www.bbc.co.uk is a consistent 196ms, because the packets first go to Johannesburg (+22ms), then back to Cape Town (+22ms again), before it goes to Lisbon.
I don't know what Neotel did, but after the one network blackout we had, our Datacenter traffic is being routed via Johannesburg. So instead of the usual 4ms latency we have to the Datacenter, we now have 44ms (2x 22ms). Luckily Neotel did provide us with another direct 2Mbps Fiber connection, which goes directly to the Datacenter, which still has a lekker low latency of 4ms

 

[Praemon]

How do you guys get below 200 ms latency to oversees. I have tried every account and it is 200ms+

Yeah, I'm also from PMB and the best I've achieved is around 195 ms to the UK - so you aren't alone

 

[ichigo]

Yeah, I'm also from PMB and the best I've achieved is around 195 ms to the UK - so you aren't alone

thanks thought we had a crap connection here

 

[mikkelz_za]

With fibre from NeoTel.

 

[kilos]

With fibre from NeoTel.

Thanks to mikkelz_za & plenty they gave us this traceroute to BBC from their Neotel Fiber (Cape Town)

BBC - UK

Tracing route to www.bbc.net.uk [212.58.244.70]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
2 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
3 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms 41.164.16.2
4 2 ms 1 ms 1 ms 41.164.0.242
5 2 ms 1 ms 1 ms ix-0-1-6-0.tcore1.KLT-CapeTown.as6453.net [41.206.164.25]
6 126 ms 125 ms 125 ms if-0-3-2.core2.PV9-Lisbon.as6453.net [195.219.214.33]
7 152 ms 152 ms 152 ms if-0-0-0-2000.tcore1.PV9-Lisbon.as6453.net [80.231.158.1]
8 152 ms 152 ms 152 ms if-3-2.tcore1.SV8-Highbridge.as6453.net [80.231.158.10]
9 153 ms 153 ms 153 ms if-2-2.tcore2.SV8-Highbridge.as6453.net [80.231.139.1]
10 152 ms 167 ms 152 ms if-9-2.tcore1.L78-London.as6453.net [80.231.139.18]
11 * 154 ms * Vlan704.icore1.LDN-London.as6453.net [80.231.130.10]
12 153 ms 153 ms 154 ms Vlan533.icore1.LDN-London.as6453.net [195.219.83.102]
13 152 ms 152 ms 152 ms ae-24-52.car3.London1.Level3.net [4.69.139.100]
14 153 ms 153 ms 153 ms 195.50.90.190
15 152 ms 152 ms 152 ms 212.58.238.169
16 153 ms 153 ms 153 ms 212.58.239.58
17 153 ms 153 ms 153 ms 212.58.251.44
18 153 ms 153 ms 153 ms bbc-vip115.telhc.bbc.co.uk [212.58.244.70]

LEVEL3.net - USA

Tracing route to ns1.level3.net [209.244.0.1]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
2 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
3 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms 41.164.16.2
4 2 ms 2 ms 1 ms 41.164.0.242
5 2 ms 1 ms 1 ms ix-0-1-6-0.tcore1.KLT-CapeTown.as6453.net [41.206.164.25]
6 126 ms 125 ms 126 ms if-0-3-1.core2.PV9-Lisbon.as6453.net [195.219.214.57]
7 153 ms 153 ms 153 ms if-0-0-0-2000.tcore1.PV9-Lisbon.as6453.net [80.231.158.1]
8 152 ms 152 ms 153 ms if-3-2.tcore1.SV8-Highbridge.as6453.net [80.231.158.10]
9 153 ms 153 ms 156 ms if-18-2.tcore2.L78-London.as6453.net [80.231.138.10]
10 153 ms 153 ms 153 ms if-2-2.tcore1.L78-London.as6453.net [80.231.131.2]
11 156 ms 161 ms * Vlan704.icore1.LDN-London.as6453.net [80.231.130.10]
12 154 ms 154 ms 153 ms Vlan533.icore1.LDN-London.as6453.net [195.219.83.102]
13 153 ms 153 ms 153 ms ae-34-52.ebr2.London1.Level3.net [4.69.139.97]
14 223 ms 223 ms 223 ms ae-42-42.ebr1.NewYork1.Level3.net [4.69.137.70]
15 223 ms 232 ms 234 ms ae-61-61.csw1.NewYork1.Level3.net [4.69.134.66]
16 225 ms 224 ms 225 ms ae-11-69.car1.NewYork1.Level3.net [4.68.16.3]
17 223 ms 223 ms 223 ms ns1.level3.net [209.244.0.1]

 

[Pada]

So far I've only played BF:BC2 on my office's Neotel Fibfre connection, and it was awesome! 5ms to WAGE (41.185.60.1). I think mikkelz_za & plenty should be able to get 2-3ms with their office's connection

The Neotel Fiber connection's latencies are very consistent. See my office's (in Stellenbosch) stats:

BBC - UK:

 Host                                           Loss%   Snt   Last   Avg  Best  Wrst StDev
 1. router2                                      0.0%    22    1.2   2.0   0.7   9.7   1.9
 2. router1                                      0.0%    22    1.1   1.6   0.9   3.7   0.6
 3. router0                                      0.0%    22    1.4   2.0   1.2   4.5   0.8
 4. gw2-neobroadband.neotel.co.za                0.0%    22    3.4   5.2   3.1  31.9   6.0
 5. 41.164.0.242                                 0.0%    22    3.9   4.4   3.8   7.1   0.7
 6. ix-0-1-6-0.tcore2.klt-capetown.as6453.net    0.0%    22   35.0   6.6   3.5  35.0   7.4
 7. if-2-2.tcore1.klt-capetown.as6453.net        0.0%    22  154.4 156.3 154.3 176.2   4.7
 8. if-0-3-0.core2.pv9-lisbon.as6453.net         0.0%    21  127.1 127.6 126.6 128.9   0.6
 9. if-0-0-0-2000.tcore1.pv9-lisbon.as6453.net   0.0%    21  154.7 156.9 154.4 186.8   7.0
10. if-3-2.tcore1.sv8-highbridge.as6453.net      0.0%    21  166.4 156.2 154.0 166.4   3.4
11. if-18-2.tcore2.l78-london.as6453.net         0.0%    21  153.3 154.1 153.0 157.1   0.9
12. if-2-2.tcore1.l78-london.as6453.net          0.0%    21  154.0 154.7 153.8 157.5   1.1
13. vlan704.icore1.ldn-london.as6453.net        15.0%    21  164.2 158.9 153.7 166.2   4.7
14. vlan533.icore1.ldn-london.as6453.net         0.0%    21  154.8 158.0 153.9 187.9   8.8
15. ae-14-51.car3.london1.level3.net             0.0%    21  153.9 154.5 153.6 156.6   0.8
16. 195.50.90.162                                0.0%    21  153.9 155.0 153.6 163.4   2.1
17. 212.58.238.137                               0.0%    21  155.4 156.5 155.0 162.8   2.1
18. te12-1.hsw1.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk                  0.0%    21  155.2 155.5 154.5 156.5   0.5
19. 212.58.255.12                                0.0%    21  155.2 156.1 155.2 163.4   1.7

LEVEL3.net - USA

                                                  Packets               Pings
 Host                                           Loss%   Snt   Last   Avg  Best  Wrst StDev
 1. router2                                      0.0%    45    3.1   2.1   1.0   4.7   1.0
 2. router1                                      0.0%    45    4.1   1.9   0.9   9.8   1.4
 3. router0                                      0.0%    45    6.1   2.0   1.0  10.4   1.7
 4. gw2-neobroadband.neotel.co.za                0.0%    45    3.2   4.3   2.8  16.4   2.4
 5. 41.164.0.242                                 0.0%    45    3.3   4.5   3.3  20.2   2.5
 6. ix-0-1-6-0.tcore1.klt-capetown.as6453.net    0.0%    45    3.4   5.5   3.4  34.4   5.1
 7. if-0-3-1.core2.pv9-lisbon.as6453.net         0.0%    45  270.4 141.6 127.5 314.9  42.6
 8. if-0-0-0-2000.tcore1.pv9-lisbon.as6453.net   0.0%    45  155.7 157.2 154.9 185.6   5.0
 9. if-3-2.tcore1.sv8-highbridge.as6453.net      0.0%    45  181.8 164.9 154.7 198.1  12.1
10. if-2-2.tcore2.sv8-highbridge.as6453.net      0.0%    45  155.0 156.8 153.8 202.7   7.9
11. if-9-2.tcore1.l78-london.as6453.net          0.0%    45  154.9 155.3 153.9 161.3   1.5
12. vlan704.icore1.ldn-london.as6453.net        25.0%    44  156.2 159.7 154.3 169.5   5.0
13. vlan533.icore1.ldn-london.as6453.net         0.0%    44  155.4 156.8 154.5 188.7   5.3
14. ae-34-52.ebr2.london1.level3.net             0.0%    44  162.5 157.9 154.8 171.5   4.0
15. ae-42-42.ebr1.newyork1.level3.net            0.0%    44  226.7 226.7 225.7 229.7   0.9
16. ae-61-61.csw1.newyork1.level3.net            0.0%    44  225.2 231.5 224.8 237.7   4.6
17. ae-11-69.car1.newyork1.level3.net            0.0%    44  226.6 251.7 225.8 516.1  60.0
18. ns1.level3.net                               0.0%    44  225.9 226.1 224.5 235.7   2.0

 

[AcidT]

As a matter of interest....

If you are situated on the coast you will get the best possable latency in the country due to a shorter route that you have when connecting to the net. The best latencies will be in the Western Cape if you are connecting to Europe or the USA as we all know this is where the SAT2/3 cables land.

Connecting to Asia you will get better latency from Natal and specifically closer towards Mtunzini area where the SAFE cable lands.

Inland your average latency on ADSL to connect to Europe or Asia will be ± 200 - 300ms.

 

[ambo]

My router in Johannesburg sees a latency of around 175ms to the other side of my SAT-3 circuit. The latency down to the Cape averages at 25ms so a latency of 150ms from CT to London seems plausible.

Latencies over Seacom and EASSy are both hovering around 225ms from my circuit endpoint in JHB. If you are in Cape Town then you would have to add 25ms to that since both these cables get to you via JHB.

Very few will actually see the benefits of being close to the cables in KZN. There are very few ISPs with a presence in Durban so in most cases you will get the same latency as JHB with a little bit added to get your traffic from the ISP's core in JHB back to you.

 

[lethalchicken1]

While I don't have the best latency (230ms on mweb 4MB uncapped) I do have the least amount of hops I could find.
Servers in netherlands are 11-12 hops servers in UK are 9 ... that is including the 1st 8 to get out of south africa. The hops represent routers through which your traffic goes so less is better as you have less chances of failure.
And the EU-US would be explained by the number of connections between them, the quality of routers and cables and the distance. We suck on all 3 points

 

[Pada]

The amounts of hops means squat. I can just establish an OpenVPN connection to Your-Freedom, and then I'll have like 2 hops to a US/EU server...

 

[Tinuva]

The amounts of hops means squat. I can just establish an OpenVPN connection to Your-Freedom, and then I'll have like 2 hops to a US/EU server...

Actually less hops does = less latency. However the amount added by a router is so small that in SA we don't see the difference, but like in NA you will. Switching is always lower latency than routing. It is one of the 1st things you learn in networking...

 

[lilggg]

Wouldn't connecting to a your-freedom server still have plenty hops? Plus u routing traffic through YF so wudnt there be even more hops?

 

[Pada]

Yes, less hops SHOULD result in less latency, but it doesn't always - especially if a VPN is being used, because then you can hide a few hops.

If I route my stuff via YF, then the 2nd hop would be in the US/EU, so my # of hops would be less, but my latency would be much worse.

 

[Tinuva]

You are correct, vpns does hide the hops, ie. doesn't make them less. Getting back to what lethalchicken1 saying he found the least amount of hops, you will find that M-Web is peered pretty good in London using LINX ect, and that traces on M-Web to Europe networks have a pretty low amount of hops compared to some other networks in SA to the same destinations.

Not going to take this any further, I think we can safely say all of us are saying, or at least know the same thing, so no point in discussing in circles.