Manual vs Automatic

[nazmo]

This is the main issue, automatic or manual, most 'new' drivers are horrendous. In fact even some 'old' drivers like my mother are terrible but this has little to do with technology.

correct. people just drive k@k and its nothing to do with manual vs auto.

Im perplexed as to why the ability to drive manual is like being some talented being either. my 70 year old mom drives manual.

 

[Neuk_]

Yeah it’s a weird thing to put my head around as I could never possibly drive like that, regardless of which kind of automatic.

But does make sense.

So to me it’s not a specific technique as per your post above, just normal operation of driving an automatic vehicle.

Yeah, I am not sure why people do it but I have seen it done, I remind my girlfriend from time to time as she has a DSG in her Audi Q3 after selling her MkIF Toyota Fortuner. Perhaps it is a bad habit from riding the clutch in a manual, which I see a f**k ton of people do daily in traffic.

 

[Neuk_]

One more time. I was not racing anyone. I was simply riding along minding my own business. I don't need to prove anything to anyone.

Reminds me of this story, told by a good friend when he owned his '79 VW Golf GLS with 3 speed automatic, I still have my '82 VW Golf GLS which has a 5 speed manual.

Driving to Blackout last night an opportunity arose....Nic pulled up next to me in his 1500 GLS....I was in my 1500 GLS Auto. With one look we knew it was on.
His SO was in the car, but my SO was with me. They weigh nearly exactly the same so even stakes. The only thing separating our cars is that mine is an auto box.

I knew if the auto shifted out of 1st early I would be dead in the water, bogging into 2nd, so I locked the tranny in 1st. It was on. My SO begged me not to, as she hates speed and acceleration on city streets, but we were men, in our machines, at a red light. Nothing else mattered. This was for glory.

The light changed and I slammed my foot on the gas. The auto box hesitated slightly but then slid into motion powering the car forward. I thought I may have heard a chirp of the tyres, but I realised it was just some suspension bushing squeeking. This looked dead even....But then Nic surged ahead.
About 20s later we were doing 50km/h, the race was on a downhill, my RPM had climbed to a high level, I could only tell this from the sound of tappets coming from seemingly everywhere (we dont have rev counters), I had to shift out of 1st and let the car continue in it's middle gear. As it jolted into 2nd I thought I may be able to catch Nic by using some torque and longer gearing but it seems his short first gear had already put his car, up to the rear door, in front of my bonnet. I didn't give up though, keeping my foot firmly on the gas. A little old lady approached us from behind in an 1100 Yaris. She seemed irritated by these boy racers blocking both lanes. But we were not quitting this race.

Just before breaking the huge 60km/h barrier I had to brake for the upcoming red light, 400m away. I had dare not leave it any later, or risk overshooting the red light. I left it till the last second and then slammed on brakes. The weight slowly shifted forward, slightly angling my new air freshner forward. I just made the red light. But Nic was already waiting, also sweating from juuuuust making the violent stop.
He had won this round, those short gears of the FFZ box really making the most of the big block 1500's great power.
Our 2 GLS's stood, ticking, with radiator fans running, proud machines being used to their max.

 

[Geoff.D]

Since you love finding links to support your view.

Book a Car Service Online | Car Servicing

Book your car service online at a DVSA-approved service centre. Minor, Major and Manufacturer car servicing available from expert vehicle technicians.

www.stoneacre.co.uk

How Long Does a Clutch Last? | YourMechanic Advice

It’s a fact of life that a car clutch will almost certainly wear out before your car does. That’s because, even under normal use, they’re going to take quite a lot of wear and tear with constant gear changes when you’re shifting...

www.yourmechanic.com

Can we agree that they are consumable items that on average rarely go beyond 150,000km, regardless of your magical mileage.

I’m betting ALL the clutches in your unicorn cars were hell and gone, but because it still moves forwards and changed gear you deemed it just fine....because #MANUAL4LIFE.

Also you are arguing a logical fallacy with the downshift nonsense. The cars are by default setup to be most economical and maintain a speed.

Having the ability to downshift doesn’t mean their maintained gear is wrong or incorrect, it simply give the driver the control (that you claim is lacking from an auto) to override the economical first approach and push the most power instead to INCREASE speed and progress further faster at the expense of more fuel.

The car will always be in the correct gear to progress forward at the current speed comfortably, of if an increase in speed is demand doing so most economically.

The driver has the option to manually override this if they so choose.

As for the hunting of gears it’s simply a case of bad ratios implemented on the wrong cars. The exact thing happens to manuals when they mate the same box to many variants of engines, it’s not the gearbox type at fault it’s simply manufacturer cutting corners.

An open ended question. Thanks for the links will have a read.
A quick scan suggests 175 000 miles - 280 000 km. A good point to keep in mind with my current vehicles. I trust you agree that in the end I am the one to decide whether I want to enter into the expense of a clutch change when there are no obvious signs that it may necessary?
I will ask my daughter what her service mechanic thinks about her car's clutch condition.
Admittedly, most drivers are not bothered unless their service agent raises a warning about the clutch. It is a grudge purchase for most of us myself included. Only true enthusiasts wanting to squeeze performance all the time will deliberately strip a car and change the clutch.
No one does this just to check and put back an old plate. If a gearbox is removed the consumables are changed regardless if you can get replacements.
You agree?
As to hunting issues. Yes, the problem is associated with mismatches and is manufacturer cost cutting related and therefore is more prevalent at the low-end automatics. Or at least one will hope so.

 

[SauRoNZA]

Yeah, I am not sure why people do it but I have seen it done, I remind my girlfriend from time to time as she has a DSG in her Audi Q3 after selling her MkIF Toyota Fortuner. Perhaps it is a bad habit from riding the clutch in a manual, which I see a f**k ton of people do daily in traffic.

Yeah I guess if you have a history of bad driving in a manual, it makes logical sense to continue the same bad behaviour in an auto.

More proof that the gearbox doesn’t have much at to do with it.

 

[SauRoNZA]

An open ended question. Thanks for the links will have a read.
A quick scan suggests 175 000 miles - 280 000 km. A good point to keep in mind with my current vehicles. I trust you agree that in the end I am the one to decide whether I want to enter into the expense of a clutch change when there are no obvious signs that it may necessary?
I will ask my daughter what her service mechanic thinks about her car's clutch condition.
Admittedly, most drivers are not bothered unless their service agent raises a warning about the clutch. It is a grudge purchase for most of us myself included. Only true enthusiasts wanting to squeeze performance all the time will deliberately strip a car and change the clutch.
No one does this just to check and put back an old plate. If a gearbox is removed the consumables are changed regardless if you can get replacements.
You agree?
As to hunting issues. Yes, the problem is associated with mismatches and is manufacturer cost cutting related and therefore is more prevalent at the low-end automatics. Or at least one will hope so.

I read 60,000-100,000 miles as being the average expected change.

You are spot on that it’s a grudge purchase which is why I highlighted that more than likely all the clutches in your super high mileage examples are more than likely worn and should be replaced but because they mostly keep working they are deemed as just fine.

Things like loss of horsepower and fuel economy are easily ignored (vs new) because it works and it changes gears, but doesn’t really mean the clutch isn’t due for replacement.

As you also rightly stated it’s not something that gets checked unless there is an external appearance of a definite problem, hence my highlight of them quite likely being gone “on paper”.

Same reason I recommend changing the water pump and thermostat when doing a cam belt regardless of them needing to be replaced because it’s cheaper to do while you are there in most cases.

The hunting though is equally a problem on manuals with regards to mismatching, but I’ll concede that a manual driver can of course learn the car and know when to stick in what gear to camouflage terrible ratios where an automatic will forever have the problem.

This is easily negated through test drive, test drive and more test drive so you don’t end up with such a dud.

Can we at least agree that clutches on cars are consumable maintenance items, albeit reasonably higher mileage ones?

 

[nazmo]

I read 60,000-100,000 miles as being the average expected change.

You are spot on that it’s a grudge purchase which is why I highlighted that more than likely all the clutches in your super high mileage examples are more than likely worn and should be replaced but because they mostly keep working they are deemed as just fine.

Things like loss of horsepower and fuel economy are easily ignored (vs new) because it works and it changes gears, but doesn’t really mean the clutch isn’t due for replacement.

As you also rightly stated it’s not something that gets checked unless there is an external appearance of a definite problem, hence my highlight of them quite likely being gone “on paper”.

Same reason I recommend changing the water pump and thermostat when doing a cam belt regardless of them needing to be replaced because it’s cheaper to do while you are there in most cases.

The hunting though is equally a problem on manuals with regards to mismatching, but I’ll concede that a manual driver can of course learn the car and know when to stick in what gear to camouflage terrible ratios where an automatic will forever have the problem.

This is easily negated through test drive, test drive and more test drive so you don’t end up with such a dud.

Can we at least agree that clutches on cars are consumable maintenance items, albeit reasonably higher mileage ones?

I had a conquest 180i Sport. Was kinda bought from my dad (family discount hehehe). it was in the family from 0km to 300 000kms. In that time the clutch was replaced twice. at 150 000kms and close to 300 000kms.

i would like to add that in the same time, the only other repair on that car was putting in a reconditioned steering rack and replacing disks twice. So the car was driven with alot of respect. and is a Toyota..

I would also like to add that i wish i never sold it

 

[SauRoNZA]

I had a conquest 180i Sport. Was kinda bought from my dad (family discount hehehe). it was in the family from 0km to 300 000kms. In that time the clutch was replaced twice. at 150 000kms and close to 300 000kms.

i would like to add that in the same time, the only other repair on that car was putting in a reconditioned steering rack and replacing disks twice. So the car was driven with alot of respect. and is a Toyota..

I would also like to add that i wish i never sold it

Yeah that kind of mileage is what I expect and would call reasonably good going.

Sometimes a little less sometimes a little more, but that is the mileage from a clutch that was used properly and simply did it’s job and ran its course.

 

[asshat99]

One more time. I was not racing anyone. I was simply riding along minding my own business. I don't need to prove anything to anyone.

Another back track. You described it exactly. You have other comments on the same delusion.

 

[Geoff.D]

I managed to do it perfectly fine for the 3+ years and 50k km's I owned a Golf with a DSG and there is no reason why anyone else shouldn't be able to do the same. What you describe is simply drivers being impatient, ill informed, lacking mechanical knowledge and sympathy, etc. This is essentially the crux of many driving/vehicle related issues in South Africa and elsewhere in the world where humans have become less and less responsible for their own experience.



You are starting to sound like a broken record, when called out or shown to be wrong or provided a different view point to yours, you lash out with the same lame rhetoric. A simple Google provides some basic definitions of a DCT gearbox...

Dual-clutch transmission - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As another poster pointed out, a DCTS are not always all the same and certainly not the same as DSGs by default. It would seem then that a debate about both needs to be qualified a bit more by confirming if the DCT is a "dry" system and the DSG is a "wet" system.

It is very often about definitions. And semantics. Ans subtle little twists introduced by manufcaturers.

 

[Geoff.D]

Correct. having spent a combined 6 years in bumper to bumper traffic in DSG cars. It takes a very specific technique not to ride the clutch. still better than manual

If I interpret correctly what you are saying, it is the same with a manual Riding/dragging the clutch or doing the equivalent with your foot on the brake in an auto is the same skill or lack of the same skill.

In my 4 x 4, I find that sometimes 4H and the right gear is a perfect match to road conditions which means no feet anywhere near the pedals, clutch, brake and gas. Revs above 1 500 and a steady speed matching traffic conditions.

 

[Geoff.D]

Yeah it’s a weird thing to put my head around as I could never possibly drive like that, regardless of which kind of automatic.

But does make sense.

So to me it’s not a specific technique as per your post above, just normal operation of driving an automatic vehicle.

Pretty normal technique in off-road driving - People talk of a "crawler gear" but actually it is all about matching the vehicle to the track/road conditions - slipper wet rocks/grass/ loose gravel/sand etc.

 

[asshat99]

If I interpret correctly what you are saying, it is the same with a manual Riding/dragging the clutch or doing the equivalent with your foot on the brake in an auto is the same skill or lack of the same skill.

In my 4 x 4, I find that sometimes 4H and the right gear is a perfect match to road conditions which means no feet anywhere near the pedals, clutch, brake and gas. Revs above 1 500 and a steady speed matching traffic conditions.

Now, imagine - if you can - some kind of transmission that could find the perfect gear for all road conditions all the time...

 

[Neuk_]

As another poster pointed out, a DCTS are not always all the same and certainly not the same as DSGs by default. It would seem then that a debate about both needs to be qualified a bit more by confirming if the DCT is a "dry" system and the DSG is a "wet" system.

It is very often about definitions. And semantics. Ans subtle little twists introduced by manufcaturers.

Yep, in exactly the same way that not all manuals are the same nor are automatics all the same.

 

[Geoff.D]

correct. people just drive k@k and its nothing to do with manual vs auto.

Im perplexed as to why the ability to drive manual is like being some talented being either. my 70 year old mom drives manual.

Hmm, does your mom know you are talking about her like this on an open forum? Why don't you help her instead?

She is like rest of us old-timers, only ever had manuals to drive. It is a skill and the conversion to auto is not automatic (pun intended). There are significant differences that have to be learnt or taught. 4 x 4 off-road driving is another skill, not all master, and by the sounds of it, many of those skills are equally applicable to driving automatics.

And as I said way back in this thread, age has nothing to do with it - it is all about a frame of mind and attitude first and then physical ability.

 

[Geoff.D]

Now, imagine - if you can - some kind of transmission that could find the perfect gear for all road conditions all the time...

Right, this is your last chance. Stop personal attacks right now.
I don't have to get a transmission to do that for me. I am perfectly capable of getting that right for myself. It is my preference to drive manuals and while I am still able to do so, I will.

 

[supersunbird]

Right, this is your last chance. Stop personal attacks right now.
I don't have to get a transmission to do that for me. I am perfectly capable of getting that right for myself. It is my preference to drive manuals and while I am still able to do so.

Reconfirmation of your poor observation skills (cough BMW cough), if you call that a personal attack...

 

[asshat99]

Right, this is your last chance. Stop personal attacks right now.
I don't have to get a transmission to do that for me. I am perfectly capable of getting that right for myself. It is my preference to drive manuals and while I am still able to do so, I will.

Or what? You are going to pretend to ignore me? Was that a personal attack? So now it is a 'preference'. Shame. The snowflake is upset. What a back track from everything else been a 'menace'.

So you are capable of achieving it "SOMETIMES". What about all your incompetent drivers who can't? The ones that did not receive the ye olde time training?

 

[supersunbird]

Or what? You are going to pretend to ignore me? Was that a personal attack? So now it is a 'preference'. Shame. The snowflake is upset. What a back track from everything else been a 'menace'.

So you are capable of achieving it "SOMETIMES". What about all your incompetent drivers who can't? The ones that did not receive the ye olde time training?

Like he pretended to leave this thread.

 

[$m@Rt@$$]

Now, imagine - if you can - some kind of transmission that could find the perfect gear for all road conditions all the time...

You do, it's called a CVT.