Maybe I misunderstand something about uncapped.

ozziej

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Yeah, the term uncapped isn't what it means, generally the FUP (Fair usage policy) is what it really is. So, to get around it what they do is that if you exceed their FUP, then they throttle you, generally restricting you to SMTP and HTTP traffic, but at a reduced speed. So, technically, its uncapped, but its so slow (usually 128kbps or 256kbps) that its almost useless.
 

Moosedrool

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Yeah.. I'm not really talking about the fair usage policy. Look at the arrow.
 

supersunbird

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The Telkom website content is often a copy and paste job with incorrect information thus being carried over from other products as they forget to edit stuffout, very amateur...
 

MickeyD

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IIRC when you hit the 50GB FUP on p2p or nntp data, you get a pop up screen that will ask you if you want to top up your data or continue using data on the OOB rates (for p2p and nntp). That rate on the advert is for the latter.
 

Moosedrool

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IIRC when you hit the 50GB FUP on p2p or nntp data, you get a pop up screen that will ask you if you want to top up your data or continue using data on the OOB rates (for p2p and nntp). That rate on the advert is for the latter.

So not really uncapped then?
 

MickeyD

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If I understand MickeyD correctly, you will have to buy more data for your torrents and such, HTML stuff will continue working and is "truly" uncapped...
Streaming video, gaming, youtube, browsing, etc... not affected. Only p2p amd nntp traffic is affected.
 

Moosedrool

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Exactly so it's false advertising IMO. Considering Ipv6's most prominent features of p2p connections such as VoIP, file sharing and online games, having that capped and other traffic not is still limited connectivity. The name should be more like:

Sort off uncapped Wireless Broadband, Our sky is a bit limited though and we only give you some interwebs.
 

MickeyD

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Exactly so it's false advertising IMO. Considering Ipv6's most prominent features of p2p connections such as VoIP, file sharing and online games, having that capped and other traffic not is still limited connectivity. The name should be more like:

Sort off uncapped Wireless Broadband, Our sky is a bit limited though and we only give you some interwebs.

You need to read up on ASA's definitions of uncapped and unlimited, etc. They made the rulings and all the operators abide by it.
 

DJ...

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If I understand MickeyD correctly, you will have to buy more data for your torrents and such, HTML stuff will continue working and is "truly" uncapped...
The moment you block/cap ports or protocols entirely at a set data consumption number, you're operating a selectively uncapped product. I'd argue that products like these sufficiently depreciate the perceived value of uncapped products in the market to warrant a wholly separate distinction by the ASA(enforce) /ICASA (define) and are far too open to abuse by lumping them all together while port/protocol capping, to allow them to be called uncapped, as is expected experience in the DSL market for an end user.

We can also launch products called uncapped but cap every protocol but HTTP port 80 for browsing, after 5GB usage. It would be astonishingly unethical to sell the above example product, and I don't believe that thresholds dictate this distinction, but rather macro product principles. IOW if a product caps protocols or ports after a set, predefined usage figure, or upon network or financial forecasts, then such a product should be defined as semi-uncapped for the sake of transparency to consumers, as well as protection of perceived product values in the general market. ISPs may not allude to, infer, market, or state in any manner that the product is "uncapped". It would have to be marketed and described clearly as a semi-uncapped service, which is an accurate description of the service being offered and in terms of disclosure for CPA prior to purchase, would be required in any case but could be hidden in terms. I propose it be product defined by the relevant regulatory body and enforced by the authority...
 

DJ...

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You need to read up on ASA's definitions of uncapped and unlimited, etc. They made the rulings and all the operators abide by it.
Port based or protocol based blocking means it should not be read as uncapped. It needs to be qualified. While I don't believe the ASA ruling covers this product, even if it did it was set before the launch of this product and needs to be tested again...
 

MickeyD

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The moment you block/cap ports or protocols entirely at a set data consumption number, you're operating a selectively uncapped product. I'd argue that products like these sufficiently depreciate the perceived value of uncapped products in the market to warrant a wholly separate distinction by the ASA(enforce) /ICASA (define) and are far too open to abuse by lumping them all together while port/protocol capping, to allow them to be called uncapped, as is expected experience in the DSL market for an end user.

We can also launch products called uncapped but cap every protocol but HTTP port 80 for browsing, after 5GB usage. It would be astonishingly unethical to sell the above example product, and I don't believe that thresholds dictate this distinction, but rather macro product principles. IOW if a product caps protocols or ports after a set, predefined usage figure, or upon network or financial forecasts, then such a product should be defined as semi-uncapped for the sake of transparency to consumers, as well as protection of perceived product values in the general market. ISPs may not allude to, infer, market, or state in any manner that the product is "uncapped". It would have to be marketed and described clearly as a semi-uncapped service, which is an accurate description of the service being offered and in terms of disclosure for CPA prior to purchase, would be required in any case but could be hidden in terms. I propose it be product defined by the relevant regulatory body and enforced by the authority...
You know my personal opinion on the term uncapped in the SA context...

There ain't such a thing.
 

Moosedrool

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You know my personal opinion on the term uncapped in the SA context...

There ain't such a thing.

Yeah that's great and and all but I haven't seen this type of BS train before with ADSL and such. Throttling yeah (even though 128kbs is harsh) but charging after a certain protocol exceeds a set limit?

It's really pushing that we can rip you off envelope to a whole new level.
 

DJ...

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You know my personal opinion on the term uncapped in the SA context...

There ain't such a thing.
There is. It costs a lot of money. There never will be dirt cheap, download full speed 24hrs per day, all day, every day, uncapped internet over DSL at least, no matter how low input costs are, as margins will always be squeezed. Why? Because some market participants are plain stupid, and rather than act responsibly, they cross subsidise or operate at a loss on DSL for brief periods and play a race-to-the-bottom game on price in a market where your audience will always be price sensitive. This is not in the best interests, contrary to what most consumers believe. It certainly reduces costs in the short term, but then stunts further reductions in price significantly and for quite some time, reduces capital investment budgets across the industry's board so one cannot easily launch products without leveraging the balance sheet, and results in much higher contentions becoming the norm (I.E reduction in quality). If all we ever do is chase the cheapest rather than balancing cost and quality, we'll be a part of the problems mentioned above...
 

myKey

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There is. It costs a lot of money. There never will be dirt cheap, download full speed 24hrs per day, all day, every day, uncapped internet over DSL at least, no matter how low input costs are, as margins will always be squeezed. Why? Because some market participants are plain stupid, and rather than act responsibly, they cross subsidise or operate at a loss on DSL for brief periods and play a race-to-the-bottom game on price in a market where your audience will always be price sensitive. This is not in the best interests, contrary to what most consumers believe. It certainly reduces costs in the short term, but then stunts further reductions in price significantly and for quite some time, reduces capital investment budgets across the industry's board so one cannot easily launch products without leveraging the balance sheet, and results in much higher contentions becoming the norm (I.E reduction in quality). If all we ever do is chase the cheapest rather than balancing cost and quality, we'll be a part of the problems mentioned above...

So MWEB a few years ago?
 

DJ...

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So MWEB a few years ago?
Their introduction of uncapped I view as ordinary product development, but two other big players in recent years have been the prime culprits of this behaviour IMHO, to the detriment of the industry and to end users. One had to make a massive network change as well as throttle their uncapped and capped accounts, and operate at contentions MUCH higher than industry standard, for around 2 years while customers complained, and their remaining loyal customer base effectively paid for their new network. Why? Their own pricing actions relatively shortly before were responsible for this. Chase a higher top line at any cost to increase the value of your business for sale, and BS your customers thereafter for years while you claim to be fixing things, meanwhile there's nothing to actually fix at all because the only solution and the one you've planned, is finding a new provider on lower operational costs which takes ages, and you need a good 6 months to "sweat" your unprofitable heavy users from your network as they're the first to lose patience and leave. This works particularly well if you actually target these heavy users behind the scenes first so you get rid of them first while avoiding contending (and upsetting) low usage, profitable customers. This is why some customers even in the same areas, and on the same products, report having different experiences. We see this currently playing out with ISP#2 right now who initiated massive specials to increase the potential value of their business by upping the top line substantially. This only works if you either accept zero cash benefit from this and therefore accept a material short term loss, and recover by contending the network in a HUGE way intermittently in the following months/years in some cases, OR you fund this from equity or debt which offsets the balance sheet benefit. Either way, the consumer pays. In the last two rounds of race-to-the-bottom price drops, the consumer got a double-whammy, as it resulted in both a performance drop and an extended contention situation to pull finances into range. That additional benefit was liquidated and withdrawn by the shareholders when they sold a part of their business later on. It's no secret ISP#2 has for some time been trying to sell their business too.

So it's not always what meets the eye, and it's certainly not what the ISP reps say it is. That's above their paygrade. Consumers should want gradual price drops for their own benefit. Massive price drops without correlating input cost decreases usually means you'll simply pay for it later, unless of course your ISP is run with integrity and actual transparency, and is prepared to absorb the cost without clawing it back somehow. Occasional capacity issues creep into any network. But what we've seen over the last few years is nothing short of personal or business gain, and feeding the public BS through a propaganda team to mitigate against negative PR risk.

Telkom has been blamed for a number of incidents BTW where it in fact had nothing to do with them. And this is fundamentally the problem with the ISP industry in this country: there is no integrity in its leadership, nor in the businesses, by and large. They're prepared to feed BS to their customers and treat them like moneybag imbeciles for their own personal gain, and ironically these are the ones many consumers herald as consumer champions. When their profit taking cycle is over, they simply start afresh with big price drops and dupe the end user into believing that they're doing so for the consumer's benefit. Unfortunately that is nonsense, as already explained. What you want is an ISP that delivers consistent performance and who you can afford. Because the "cheapest" is never a true reflection of pricing. If you base your buying decision on such events/pricing, you're playing into the hands of those actively slowing down the positive evolution of the industry...
 
Last edited:

whatwhat

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Their introduction of uncapped I view as ordinary product development, but two other big players in recent years have been the prime culprits of this behaviour IMHO, to the detriment of the industry and to end users. One had to make a massive network change as well as throttle their uncapped and capped accounts, and operate at contentions MUCH higher than industry standard, for around 2 years while customers complained, and their remaining loyal customer base effectively paid for their new network. Why? Their own pricing actions relatively shortly before were responsible for this. Chase a higher top line at any cost to increase the value of your business for sale, and BS your customers thereafter for years while you claim to be fixing things, meanwhile there's nothing to actually fix at all because the only solution and the one you've planned, is finding a new provider on lower operational costs which takes ages, and you need a good 6 months to "sweat" your unprofitable heavy users from your network as they're the first to lose patience and leave. This works particularly well if you actually target these heavy users behind the scenes first so you get rid of them first while avoiding contending (and upsetting) low usage, profitable customers. This is why some customers even in the same areas, and on the same products, report having different experiences. We see this currently playing out with ISP#2 right now who initiated massive specials to increase the potential value of their business by upping the top line substantially. This only works if you either accept zero cash benefit from this and therefore accept a material short term loss, and recover by contending the network in a HUGE way intermittently in the following months/years in some cases, OR you fund this from equity or debt which offsets the balance sheet benefit. Either way, the consumer pays. In the last two rounds of race-to-the-bottom price drops, the consumer got a double-whammy, as it resulted in both a performance drop and an extended contention situation to pull finances into range. That additional benefit was liquidated and withdrawn by the shareholders when they sold a part of their business later on. It's no secret ISP#2 has for some time been trying to sell their business too.

So it's not always what meets the eye, and it's certainly not what the ISP reps say it is. That's above their paygrade. Consumers should want gradual price drops for their own benefit. Massive price drops without correlating input cost decreases usually means you'll simply pay for it later, unless of course your ISP is run with integrity and actual transparency, and is prepared to absorb the cost without clawing it back somehow. Occasional capacity issues creep into any network. But what we've seen over the last few years is nothing short of personal or business gain, and feeding the public BS through a propaganda team to mitigate against negative PR risk.

Telkom has been blamed for a number of incidents BTW where it in fact had nothing to do with them. And this is fundamentally the problem with the ISP industry in this country: there is no integrity in its leadership, nor in the businesses, by and large. They're prepared to feed BS to their customers and treat them like moneybag imbeciles for their own personal gain, and ironically these are the ones many consumers herald as consumer champions. When their profit taking cycle is over, they simply start afresh with big price drops and dupe the end user into believing that they're doing so for the consumer's benefit. Unfortunately that is nonsense, as already explained. What you want is an ISP that delivers consistent performance and who you can afford. Because the "cheapest" is never a true reflection of pricing. If you base your buying decision on such events/pricing, you're playing into the hands of those actively slowing down the positive evolution of the industry...

Good, honest post. This is why CW will never feature as the MyBB most Innovative ISP in SA :( as you aren't out to milk all your customers dry.
 
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