Netherlands considers more nuclear power

[Lupus]

Max load is during the day. Always is, always will be. We live in the day, and use most of the power when we're awake (and working). Duck curve at the end of the day for the evening peak.

If I could find some load graphs, I'd post. Link if you can find, my googlefu betrays me today.

Typically load is low in morning, highest daytime, then slopes off again.
There is an evening peak at around 7pm tailing off to 9pm (cooking and heating mostly), then it basically dies till the morning again.

Adding decent amounts of solar and/or wind in a country where both wind and solar generation are the best in the world is not a hard decision.

Storage is not quite necessary here yet, although it would be nice.
We're better off adding a lot more generation.

Actually no that's incorrect, most of the time people are at work during the day they are not at home using their appliances and such, but around 5pm or so they are and that's when it peaks.



Here's todays power alert from Eskom where it has it's forecast avaliability vs the demand forecast and the max availability, look at how the load slowly increases over the course of the day with a peak around 6pm. Now solar would alleviate the time period from 6am to 6pm, but it won't do anything for 6pm.

Here's an older one from the UK


Notice a similar trend here.

Edit:
They even have power stations for peak periods

Peaking power plant - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"
Renewable energy[edit]
For countries that are trending away from coal-fired base load plants and towards intermittent energy sources such as wind and solar, there is a corresponding increase in the need for peaking or load following power plants and the use of grid interties, such as the WECC Intertie Paths."

 

[itareanlnotani]

Note I wrote day (not daytime).
That said, 5pm is definitely both day and daytime. At least during summer.
Solar would definitely help.

Imagine we had solar in the day - generating electricity.
We wouldn't be using whatever coal generation is needed daytime, and polluting the environment as much - thats one benefit.
We also wouldn't be needing to run our gas generation on diesel either - as has been done for many a year already.
Only having to run coal or diesel(gas) at 6pm instead of in the daytime saves Eskom billions.

If we had sufficient generation, we could also use our pumped storage for what its intended for - peaking (i.e. evening peak). Solar could prime pumped storage so its ready for the evening peak, then the pumped storage can handle it.

All of which benefit.

The easy solution to killing the evening peak is to mandate solar hot water heating for all houses, and encourage cooking on gas. This can easily be done with time of day tariff's.

If load availability is low, and demand is high, charge more for electricity. End users will soon learn by encouragement. Money talks..

 

[Nicodeamus]

Note I wrote day (not daytime).
That said, 5pm is definitely both day and daytime. At least during summer.
Solar would definitely help.

Imagine we had solar in the day - generating electricity.
We wouldn't be using whatever coal generation is needed daytime, and polluting the environment as much - thats one benefit.
We also wouldn't be needing to run our gas generation on diesel either - as has been done for many a year already.
Only having to run coal or diesel(gas) at 6pm instead of in the daytime saves Eskom billions.

If we had sufficient generation, we could also use our pumped storage for what its intended for - peaking (i.e. evening peak). Solar could prime pumped storage so its ready for the evening peak, then the pumped storage can handle it.

All of which benefit.

The easy solution to killing the evening peak is to mandate solar hot water heating for all houses, and encourage cooking on gas. This can easily be done with time of day tariff's.

If load availability is low, and demand is high, charge more for electricity. End users will soon learn by encouragement. Money talks..

Why go through all that trouble if you can just build a coal power plant? or as I would like Nuclear? Africa sits with an abundance of coal (granted the ANC can screw it up).

Cooking on Gas is a GHG. I don't see the point.

I agree that everyone should use a solar water heater, that is a no brainer.

 

[Johnatan56]

Actually no that's incorrect, most of the time people are at work during the day they are not at home using their appliances and such, but around 5pm or so they are and that's when it peaks.

View attachment 923817

Here's todays power alert from Eskom where it has it's forecast avaliability vs the demand forecast and the max availability, look at how the load slowly increases over the course of the day with a peak around 6pm. Now solar would alleviate the time period from 6am to 6pm, but it won't do anything for 6pm.

Here's an older one from the UK
View attachment 923823

Notice a similar trend here.

Edit:
They even have power stations for peak periods

Peaking power plant - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"
Renewable energy[edit]
For countries that are trending away from coal-fired base load plants and towards intermittent energy sources such as wind and solar, there is a corresponding increase in the need for peaking or load following power plants and the use of grid interties, such as the WECC Intertie Paths."

So you're pointing at just after sunset, the peak time for wind generation?

 

[LazyLion]

Great News! Finally some common sense is starting to creep in worldwide. We need Nuclear to power us into the 22nd Century. It will be the mainstay of our world power grid by that time... (unless we manage to perfect fusion power before then).

 

[Lupus]

So you're pointing at just after sunset, the peak time for wind generation?

If there is wind, if there isn't you can't use it.

 

[Johnatan56]

If there is wind, if there isn't you can't use it.

That is a very strange argument, so you're saying there will be no wind across the entire country, and we will build the wind turbines in the areas with the least wind movement possible?

Great News! Finally some common sense is starting to creep in worldwide. We need Nuclear to power us into the 22nd Century. It will be the mainstay of our world power grid by that time... (unless we manage to perfect fusion power before then).

It would be really stupid to rule out SMR entirely if the first working prototypes don't even exist yet...

 

[Nicodeamus]

That is a very strange argument, so you're saying there will be no wind across the entire country, and we will build the wind turbines in the areas with the least wind movement possible?

It would be really stupid to rule out SMR entirely if the first working prototypes don't even exist yet...

you are aware that SMRs isn’t aN entirely new technology? Submarines have been using it for years.

 

[Lupus]

you are aware that SMRs isn’t aN entirely new technology? Submarines have been using it for years.

And aircraft carriers

 

[pinball wizard]

I really don't get why muppets are anti- modern nuclear power stations. ****ing morons if you ask me.

 

[Lupus]

I really don't get why muppets are anti- modern nuclear power stations. ****ing morons if you ask me.

Cause of Chernobyl, Three mile island and Fukushima. I mean keep up man...

 

[pinball wizard]

Cause of Chernobyl, Three mile island and Fukushima. I mean keep up man...

Like I said, morons.

 

[Archer]

I really don't get why muppets are anti- modern nuclear power stations. ****ing morons if you ask me.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge people who are reacting on their base survival instincts. And calling them morons in your opening salvo is certainly not helping win anyone over. This is why discussions on MyBB so often deteriorate into a mud slinging competition. The tiniest bit of empathy would go a long way

 

[pinball wizard]

I wouldn't be so quick to judge people who are reacting on their base survival instincts. And calling them morons in your opening salvo is certainly not helping win anyone over. This is why discussions on MyBB so often deteriorate into a mud slinging competition. The tiniest bit of empathy would go a long way

Win anyone over? WTF are you smoking my man?

The fact that people think a nuclear power station threatens their base survival explicitly illustrates my argument that they are, in fact, morons.

 

[Lupus]

I wouldn't be so quick to judge people who are reacting on their base survival instincts. And calling them morons in your opening salvo is certainly not helping win anyone over. This is why discussions on MyBB so often deteriorate into a mud slinging competition. The tiniest bit of empathy would go a long way

Base survival instincts? These are the same people who drive a car every day but think a nuclear power station is bad? You know what kills most people? Getting out of bed every morning, some lucky few don't have that luxury.

 

[Nicodeamus]

Like I said, morons.

My view on this is largely inspired by Schellenberger’s observation that it has to do with the modern religion of environmentalism. You can predict someone’s political views and their non religion to the teeth by their stance on the environment.
If we decide to go Nuclear (that is ultimately a government decision) then it means that we in the West can maintain our energy use and lifestyle without fundamentally having to restructure our lives.

It kills their messianic goal.

 

[pinball wizard]

My view on this is largely inspired by Schellenberger’s observation that it has to do with the modern religion of environmentalism. You can predict someone’s political views and their non religion to the teeth by their stance on the environment.
If we decide to go Nuclear (that is ultimately a government decision) then it means that we in the West can maintain our energy use and lifestyle without fundamentally having to restructure our lives.

Interesting read. Thanks for that.

( http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2020/07/shellenbergers-op-ad/ )

 

[Archer]

Win anyone over? WTF are you smoking my man?

The fact that people think a nuclear power station threatens their base survival explicitly illustrates my argument that they are, in fact, morons.

Let's put this another way.
Look at the conversation up until your post. Most could be described as civil, factual, or interesting. No matter which side of the discussion you're on you'd be able to take part
What exactly did you bring to the table? Oh insults. Amazing.

 

[pinball wizard]

Let's put this another way.
Look at the conversation up until your post. Most could be described as civil, factual, or interesting. No matter which side of the discussion you're on you'd be able to take part
What exactly did you bring to the table? Oh insults. Amazing.

Amazingly, I'm exactly like this in real life too.

There's nothing to debate with respect to nuclear power as far as I can see. Hence, I am not going to beat around the feelings bush. It's a non-starter. The fear mongering around clean nuclear energy is simply un-realistic and moronic. It's the same as the retarded over reaction to corona.

Look, I called people, probably the same group, retards and morons.

 

[konfab]

Cause of Chernobyl, Three mile island and Fukushima. I mean keep up man...

Lets put some numbers to that, because you know, science.



https://ourworldindata.org/safest-sources-of-energy

Now you have a bit of an awkward position, given that battery technology right now cannot meet peak demand the way that nuclear power does. Which means that any total calculations of the loss of life for renewables will have to have some part of the deaths from oil and natural gas.