Newbie Cap question

cadster

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Forgive the ignorance, but this our first month on ADSL. If the 3GB cap is exceeded, we're switched to a slower international bandwidth - right?
But are we automatically switched back to the regular international feed in the new month, or do we languish in the slow bandwidth pool in perpetuity?
And this 3GB cap is on Local AND international traffic? Who else thinks that's messed up?
We do a stack of local traffic (development server in JHB that we've got nearly permanent SSH sessions too), and this contributes to our 3GB cap? That can't be right.


---------------------------
There are only 3 kinds of
people in this world,
those that can count &
those that can't.
 
Everybody that's capped gets switched back to uncapped at the same time of the month (the 1st I think).
When capped, international will be virtually unaccessible.
 
That is correct, everyone is uncapped on the 1st of the month.

Both International and Local traffic counts towards reaching the cap, but once you are capped, it only applies to International and not local. Once you are capped, forget about international. It's not just slow, it's simply impossible.


----------------
United we stand!
----------------
 
So it's just a full out download fest at the end of the month?
[}:)]

I suppose that's ok - we just <emerge squid> on our development server and route through that if it all goes pear-shaped [:D]

Thanks for the info guys


---------------------------
There are only 3 kinds of
people in this world,
those that can count &
those that can't.
 
"That is correct, everyone is uncapped on the 1st of the month.

Both International and Local traffic counts towards reaching the cap"

Just thought i'll let you guys no, this statement is NOT true! there is a lot of technical stuff behind this, but the bottom line is that thay cannot cap localy!

PLUR
 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Xinetd</i>
<br /><font size="2"><font color="blue"><i>"That is correct, everyone is uncapped on the 1st of the month.
Both International and Local traffic counts towards reaching the cap"</i> </font id="blue"></font id="size2">

<font color="red"><font size="2">Just thought i'll let you guys no, <b>this statement is NOT true</b>! there is a lot of technical stuff behind this, but the bottom line is that thay cannot cap localy!</font id="size2"> </font id="red">
PLUR<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hi Xinetd,

Please tell us what is not true about the statements (<font color="blue">in blue</font id="blue">) above
 
I would also really like to know what counts towards the cap.

For example, last month I downloaded a 500meg patch off Saix http but it never reflected on my usage. The previous month, none of my onlie gaming to saix servers seemed to count.

Now in the first 5 days of November, my usage is sitting at 560 megs and thats jut from browsing and a few hours of games on saix games servers?

If anyone can explain to a techno noob, I would be very grateful.
Ao
ps I am searching for the answer in the forums so if I find it myself, I'll post it here.
 
<i>Originally posted by ArcticOyster</i>
<font color="blue"><font size="2"><i>I would also really like to know what counts towards the cap.[/</i></font id="size2"></font id="blue">quote]

Everything counts towards the cap -
upstream traffic and downstream traffic, local and international, email and browsing - everything.

Once the cap is reached local usage continues as uncapped.

So it could be said that local usage becomes uncapped once the 3GB CAP has been reached.


<b>This is why many power users have two accounts - </b>

the first they cap as soon as possible and use it to local resources to obtain international content. newsgroups, proxies, vpn, irc etc.

the second account they use for normal international browsing.
 
OK. It is true, all international outgoing traffic is tracked by a RADIUS server which splits data and voice which leaves our exchanges. data is recorded (the amount of data) and kept in logs and thats how they can see how much you have requested out and in, data wise! The reason why they cannot cap locally is because it would cripple our exchanges in our towns, + telkom buys their bandwidth from European countries, so they would be charged for the amount which is used. It wouldnt be nesaccary for telkom to charge locally. I take it you have noticed that you dont have to dial a tel number when connecting to your ISP. Thats the radius server at the exchange.
Hope this helps abit more?! I'll try to find more info if you guys/gals still dont fully understand.

PLUR
 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by ArcticOyster</i>
<br />Now in the first 5 days of November, my usage is sitting at 560 megs and thats jut from browsing and a few hours of games on saix games servers?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I have a similar problem that's also quite strange. I checked my bandwidth usage this morning, and discovered that Telkom has registered that I downloaded 24MB over the weekend (1&2 Nov). The funny thing is, the ADSL runs at my office and all the computers were off over the weekend with no one using them during this period.

What gives??

Thanks
Nick
 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Xinetd</i>
<br />OK. It is true, all international outgoing traffic is tracked by a RADIUS server ...

&lt;snip&gt;

PLUR
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Sort of. Let me give you the low down.

There is only one ADSL infrustructure provider in S.A., yup you guessed it SAIX. Every ISP (except MWeb, more about this later) is simply reselling ADSL. Most of the smaller ISP's don't even have their own radius servers, they let SAIX handle it for them. So the ISP will pay X rands per month for a username/password to SAIX and the sell that username/password to us for X + markup rands per month. That simple. MWeb has installed their own BRAS so that they can use their own bandwidth for their ADSL customers.

Once you have an ADSL connection at home you can use any ISP you wish. You can even be connected to 4 different ISP's at once :-). Once your username/password is authenticated the traffic counting starts. Every packet that goes up or down your connection is totalled. There is no descrimination between International and local destinations.

Like I said earlier, most ISP's let SAIX handle the traffic management for them, your ISP is one of these if you log into SAIX to check your monthly usage (http://userstats.adsl.saix.net/). The larger ISP's have their own radius servers and maintain their own traffic databases, e.g. Telkom Internet.

These larger ISP's have their own radius servers which do authentication for their user base, so SAIX simply forwards all logon requests to their radius servers. They get a radius start record from SAIX when you logon and a stop record when you logoff. The stop record contains the number of Rx/Tx octets (bandwidth) used for your session. These values are added to your running total. Usually on a daily basis your bandwidth total is checked and if it has exceeded 3GB then your are "capped".

As the radius protocol uses UDP and because there are always problems somewhere the stop records do not always reach the radius servers. In this case some ISP's will then just ignore that session and you score the used bandwidth free. Other ISP's go one step futher and fall back to the last alive record (an alive record is sent every 30 minutes you are logged on) and treat that as a stop record. So if this happens you can score a maximum of the last 30 minutes bandwidth free. If you can determine when this will happen so that you benefit, please let me know :-).


Once you are "capped" you will notice that your IP adressess 3rd octet is much smaller than normal, i.e. 165.165.x. Traffic with capped IP addressess are routed Internationaly over a different PVC that has very little bandwidth allocated to it while the rest of the ADSL traffic goes over the "larger" PVC. Simple as that.

The only way you can effectively bypass the capping is to route your International traffic via a non-ADSL IP address, like a proxy. Naturally SAIX does not allow connections to cache.saix.net from the 165.165/16 address block so if you can find a badly configured local proxy my advice is to keep it to yourself and reap the benefits. :-)

The next best thing is to have more than one login. You can either use one login at a time until the cap is reached or have multiple connections setup and do policy based routing over these links (very easy with Linux). For example, the latter setup with 4 logins. Policy based routing splitting http,ftp,email,p2p over different links. So when the p2p traffic gets capped it does not affect surfing, email, etc.. If p2p is important to you then you can simply move that particular type of traffic to one of the other less used links. Make sense?

I've rattled on long enough, any questions, just post them to the forum.



Apple // Forever.
 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by HiHat</i>
Every ISP (except MWeb, more about this later) is simply reselling ADSL.
MWeb has installed their own BRAS so that they can use their own bandwidth for their ADSL customers.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
<font color="blue">So only MWeb uses their own bandwidth for their ADSL clients?
I am a bit confused with the statement you make later on....
</font id="blue">
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The larger ISP's have their own radius servers and maintain their own traffic databases, e.g. Telkom Internet.

These larger ISP's have their own radius servers which do authentication for their user base, so SAIX simply forwards all logon requests to their radius servers.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Wouldn't all ISP's that have their own radius servers route Network traffic through their own bandwidth?

The reason I ask is because there would then be no specific reason why those ISP have to adhere to the 3GB cap then?

Probably dumb questions.

I have a certain picture in my mind of how ADSL currently hangs together (for the smaller ISP's anyway). I wonder if somebody has a diagram of how Telkom's/Interkom's ADSL network works (from your home onwards). I am not looking for the International way ADSL works, but how it is implemented here and how the traffic works when one is just reselling Telkom/Interkom's user accounts. What is the purpose then of the smaller ISP's in the Telkom-world of ADSL?

Mux
You don't know what you don't know.
 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mux</i>

Wouldn't all ISP's that have their own radius servers route Network traffic through their own bandwidth?

The reason I ask is because there would then be no specific reason why those ISP have to adhere to the 3GB cap then?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

The radius servers are used for authentication. SAIX have their own radius servers but in the case of an ISP having their own, then SAIX will forward authentication requests to this ISP's radius servers. This is done on the "realm" part of the username. So if your username was [email protected] then SAIX knows to forward all authentication requests with the realm "dsl512telkomsa.net" to Telkom Internet radius servers.

All this buys for the larger ISP's is that they can control their own userbase and get all the radius statistics from SAIX which they use to monitor bandwidth, etc.. Of course they have to calculate their own capping of accounts as per agreement with SAIX.

The ADSL traffic is routed via SAIX. You as an ISP providing radius authentication have no control of it. MWeb have obviously struck up a deal with SAIX to route all their customers traffic to their BRAS which lets MWeb use their bandwidth for each MWeb ADSL customer.

I am sure in the future more ISP's will do this but it is very expensive. You would need to purchase the BRAS and bandwidth. Then you would be in the same position as SAIX - too little Internet revenue and high bandwidth costs.



Apple // Forever.
 
Thanks for that answer HiHat.
So, the radius authentication server is not the same as the BRAS. MWEB is currently the only ISP (other than Interkom) that has a BRAS, and hence act as a full ISP using their own bandwidth, right?
In other words, they may elect to ignore the 3GB cap imposed?

If other ISP's don't use their own bandwidth for ADSL traffic, what's the sense in making use of them?
(I am still a bit confused. I wonder if there is anybody out there with a Network diagram on Telkom's ADSL implementation.)

Mux
You don't know what you don't know.
 
There is only one ADSL provider in S.A., SAIX. Everybody else is just reselling the service. If you wanted to you could start a small ISP and sell ADSL. You would simply be paying SAIX a fee per login and then selling it to your customers with a markup.

Having your own radius server means you can maintain your own userbase. E.g. You purchase 50 logins from SAIX and sell them to your customers. Now a customer phones your helpdesk and wants to change his password. If you had your own radius servers then you could change it there and then with the customer still on the phone, as they are your servers. Else you have to record the new password in your database and then issue a request to SAIX to change it on their radius database. As you can imagine after a few months your database of login/passwords will be out of sync with SAIX's database.

The ADSL network is (very basically) like this (Things change fast so please correct me if neccessary).

Modem at home --&gt; DSLAM at exchange

DSLAM --&gt; BRAS (1 BRAS for many many DSLAM's)

BRAS --&gt; IPNET (SAIX's IP backbone/network)

Now in MWebs case they provide their own BRAS and network thereafter for their realm.

Intekom = Telkom Internet, same company, same everything.

ISP's that have their own radius servers police the capping of logins. They may choose to ignore the 3GB limit but then SAIX will just chop them off at the knees. They are reselling a 3GB capped service.

For ADSL, except MWeb, there is no difference per ISP. They are all selling the same thing. That is why your ADSL bill is split into two. A line rental and an ISP charge. Use the ISP that charges the least or the one that has the best service.




Apple // Forever.
 
Thanks once again for the comprehence answer HiHat.

It is a sad state of affairs. [xx(]
 
shot HiHat for all the extra info that i couldnt think of/remember to post, but im glad to c that there are ppl out there giving info to other :)

PLUR
 
ello answer this for me please. you say that anything u do uses your cap right ? including playing online games on a local server ?
So if you are capped does your ping on a local server go to 56k ping or does it stay adsl ping. and does playing online games all day effect your cap ?

Thanx :D

o.O
 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by angermite</i>
<br />ello answer this for me please. you say that anything u do uses your cap right ? including playing online games on a local server ?
So if you are capped does your ping on a local server go to 56k ping or does it stay adsl ping. and does playing online games all day effect your cap ?

Thanx :D

o.O
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


ANY network traffic that goes up or down your link is counted towards your total. When that total reaches 3GB then you are capped. So to really put a damper on your day, if you are online and your IP is portscanned or "hit" by the slammer virus, even if you have a firewall that drops the offending packets, that traffic counts towards your total. Now that sucks... :-)

A far better solution from SAIX would have been to capp when _either_ your up or down traffic reached 3GB and not like it is now, where they add the two together.

As for ping times, SAIX does no bandwidth shaping for local ADSL traffic, although I am sure this will change in the future. This also depends on where this "game server" is. The network it is on might have it's own bandwidth limitations, etc...

Remember that just because a physical server is located in South Africa it does not mean that from a network point of view it is considered local. You can have a non-SAIX leased line to the Internet that is routed overseas via another ISP. It can get very technical but a good rule of thumb is:- You have a SAIX service (ADSL) and any service you are making use of that is not on the SAIX backbone is not considered local.


Apple // Forever.
 
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