No Zero VAT for Books

[oronte]

Far to difficult to maintain, selective vat on a constantly changing sub-list of items? Can you see how no one is ever going to do that, the system will cost almost as much to maintain and again in real terms most of the benefit is for people who can afford it anyway. 0 rated vat is simply not a solution to any of these problems.

 

[porchrat]

Far to difficult to maintain, selective vat on a constantly changing sub-list of items? Can you see how no one is ever going to do that, the system will cost almost as much to maintain and again in real terms most of the benefit is for people who can afford it anyway. 0 rated vat is simply not a solution to any of these problems.

I don't see how difficult it is to do. Heck you could setup a computer to do it for you. Just feed the new list in once a year and off you go. Those that refuse to will not make the sales because their product will be 14% more expensive.

 

[MidnightWizard]

Exclusive

Far to difficult to maintain, selective vat on a constantly changing sub-list of items? Can you see how no one is ever going to do that, the system will cost almost as much to maintain and again in real terms most of the benefit is for people who can afford it anyway. 0 rated vat is simply not a solution to any of these problems.

NOW there is an apt description

Care to explain WHO owns this chain of stores ( another monopoly / cartel )

Care to define "wealthy" -- in some peoples eyes just being a white person that manages to have their own house and car and kids at University is classed as "wealthy"

So why so hard on the wealthy -- HOW much TAX do the "wealthy" pay ????

Seems to me that you have the same collectivist / socialist bent as Cecil Morden -- why do you think that the "wealthy" should suffer -- as if South Africans do not pay enough tax as it is.

What for -- to build 200 Million palaces for idiots that never owned a book in their life.

PAHLEASE ............

Why does 0% VAT have to be a problem ?

Why do books / printed material have to be taxed anyway ?

Start at the fundamentals !

WHY are books zero rated in the UK ?????

Too many "wealthy" people there ??????

( Too many red herrings and Gov trolls attached to this little story )

 

[oronte]

I'm responding to the argument everyone on this thread has made that it will support the "poor", it won't. And yes, there are too many wealthy people in the uk. And if you have a car and can send your kids to university you are wealthy - you clearly have no idea what poverty is in South Africa. But isn't it lovely to dismiss any opinion you do not agree with as coming from a government "troll". And are you saying the government doesn't build houses for the poor, schools, provide water, restrict, etc. the government wastes all the money of taxpayers? You make that kind of generalisation and ask me to define the word 'wealthy'? I really can't take you seriously now.

 

[Sonic2k]

The prices of books are extortion any way you look at it... taking the VAT off will lower the price sure... but not by the required margin to ensure the poor can afford them!

 

[Bona Botse]

The prices of books are extortion any way you look at it... taking the VAT off will lower the price sure... but not by the required margin to ensure the poor can afford them!

ramen to that brother. in my final year in varsity, i had to order my books from amazon since van schaik had run out. imagine my surprise when the imported books cost less than what van schaik wanted for them

 

[oronte]

You can buy bestsellers from 2 or 3 years ago at about R40 and kids books from R10 at placed like Bargain Books how much cheaper do you want it to get? And if people aren't buying books at these prices why would they buy them at 14% less? Let's face it - most of you want to pay less for books and you're using the "poor" as a shield. Books are expensive but you can:
Buy second hand
Go to the library
Import from take2 or loot at half the price
Switch to ebooks

 

[Sonic2k]

for varsity books.. ebooks are lagging behind... I've been down that road because I get asked all the time to find books for boss's son.
2nd hand is not always an option when coursework depends on the latest edition.

As for using "poor" as a shield- not me... they can cut the VAT, the books still remain expensive. I would rather they take the publishers to task, quite frankly!

 

[oronte]

Not talking about you koosi (or porchrat). It's not the local academic publishers but the international ones and for them it's two things:
It's expensive to publish small quantities.
They expect this segment can pay more (not necessarily true of course).

 

[MidnightWizard]

Second Hand

You can buy bestsellers from 2 or 3 years ago at about R40 and kids books from R10 at placed like Bargain Books how much cheaper do you want it to get?
And if people aren't buying books at these prices why would they buy them at 14% less?
Let's face it - most of you want to pay less for books and you're using the "poor" as a shield.
Books are expensive but you can:
Buy second hand
Go to the library
Import from take2 or loot at half the price
Switch to ebooks

In essence yes
However I am not talking about "Mills & Boon"

When was the last time you went to a library -- do you know how far behind their books are ?

PLEASE tell me where in SA I can buy second hand but fairly current ITC books / Technical books.( Not the current SA price of R500.00 to over R1000.00 )

eg Go to Amazon and look for a book -- you will notice a little pointer that says USED --
click on that and it will take you to third party sellers where you can find Current books for about US$5 to US$10

Books that would have LARGE printings in the US / Europe because of the size of the reading population there.

Why is something similar not available in SA (because it would represent a threat to the entrenched monopoly )

In any case why should you as an individual have to go to the trouble of importing books yourself ?

eBooks -- nice -- but not for refence or studying.

 

[porchrat]

You can buy bestsellers from 2 or 3 years ago at about R40 and kids books from R10 at placed like Bargain Books how much cheaper do you want it to get?

You clearly have never purchased a textbook.

I really couldn't care less what older bestsellers cost. I do however care what a textbook costs. It isn't only rich people that go to school and require those books. Removing VAT will indeed benefit the poor even if they're buying second hand. As the price of new books falls so will the price of the second hand books.

 

[Vrotappel]

In a country like SA which is rife with fraud you cannot 0 rate or exempt items from VAT. You will just be opening another loophole to the opportunists and fraudsters.

 

[MidnightWizard]

Complex

I'm responding to the argument everyone on this thread has made that it will support the "poor", it won't.

The poor -- bless them -- are a red herring.

Very few poor go to Exclusive and buy books -- they are lucky if their school "library" has a few.

So sure taking VAT away from books is a NON-ISSUE as far as the "poor" are concerned.

This ruling affects the MIDDLE CLASS -- those trying to educate and improve themselves.

And yes, there are too many wealthy people in the uk.

Proves my point re -- Socialist thinking

And if you have a car and can send your kids to university you are wealthy - you clearly have no idea what poverty is in South Africa.

HOW do you know ???????

So now we must aim for the lowest common denominator ?

But isn't it lovely to dismiss any opinion you do not agree with as coming from a government "troll".

Blame yourself -- wear the shoe if it fits -- never mentioned you by name !

And are you saying the government doesn't build houses for the poor, schools, provide water, restrict, etc. the government wastes all the money of taxpayers?

They certainly seem to be doing a good job of it

You make that kind of generalisation and ask me to define the word 'wealthy'? I really can't take you seriously now.

So what did you do in "retail" ? -- sell books from the Exclusive counter ?????

 

[oronte]

Thanks for insulting me. You're a really good person. So if a view point is socialist (and I don't think mine is), it is invalid? Read the article you linked to - the treasury believes zero-rating is always a bad strategy and instead of helping the poor actually helps the rich. Read up on it - everyone with an economics background I've spoken to agrees and I have asked because I have heard this argument before.
I worked behind the counter and Fascination and Exclusive books, I've received and merchandised stock, I've assisted buyers and I've bought books and arranged deals myself. Oh and I also managed a book store for a while - OKAY? Now one of my functions is purchasing and arranging deals for a tertiary college - GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU PORCHRAT?

I had made a long response but lost it (I'd like to thank the dodgy connection of Cell C for that). But basically you all want cheaper books - 0 rated vat is not the way to go about that. What you want are either rebates for educational institutes or a direct intervention with publishers and distributors. Okay I'll explain a little -

The reason retail books are so expensive is because of the UK (ironic, ain't it Midnight Wizard). They produce higher quality A format books and local distributors have to stock books from them due to regional agreements. American B format books are lower quality but are half the price (compare US and UK editions of the same book on take2 or loot to see what I mean). Also the UK market can pay more for books, so when exporting to SA they don't care that South Africans have less money, the local arms of those publishers slap the same exorbitant price on the books and send it off to local retailers (they determine the prices not local retailers, although Exclusive do mark-up their books further). Also sales volumes in SA are low to begin with so you have to make more money out of each book because you aren't going to sell that many anyway.

In the case of academic publishers of prescribed books - they know you have no other choice so you have to pay whatever they ask. For other publications it's the small volume produced that leads to the high prices. Why are ebook prices the same then? I have no idea. Apple deserve a little blame since they undermined Amazon's efforts to force publishers to charge less.

The problem is there's not much the SA government can do since local publishers don't make large profits (actually more and more are closing down). So it would be up to American and British governments to effect any change in the industry and globally book sales are on a strong downward trend. So the only local solution I can think of that would benefit those who need educational books is some kind of rebate scheme which I would whole-heartedly support. 0-rated vat is a nice idea but the treasury's viewpoint is logical. I would add that I don't like it (I would love to see the price of books go down) but their perspective does make sense.

 

[Sonic2k]

I worked behind the counter and Fascination and Exclusive books,

Big deal... your employers were still far more expensive than others...
Could you justify some computer textbooks costing more than the minimum wage? In the region of R2500.00

 

[oronte]

Does no one actually read anything anyone else posts on these forums? And it's your own fault if you're stupid enough to buy an academic book from a general retailer - they can't use educational suppliers so you'll pay more from them. And where in my posts did I support either company? I just pointed out how the system operates, nothing more.
I never buy books from retail, I use my kindle or take 2. Honestly if you are paying full retail price for books in SA you need your head examined or you're rich enough not to care.

 

[MidnightWizard]

Rich Man Poor Man Tinker Tailor Soldier Sailor -- ALL need BOOKS !

Read the article you linked to - the treasury believes zero-rating is always a bad strategy and instead of helping the poor actually helps the rich.

Please qualify "rich" & in any case WHAT is so wrong in helping the "rich" ?

WHY are we trying to help the "poor" by pulling down the "rich"

SURELY we should be helping the poor by teaching them to HELP THEMSELVES

But no this is too much like hard work -- much better to use the "rich" as an excuse and scapegoat for everything.

Now the SUPERRICH -- THAT is a different story !

Read up on it - everyone with an economics background I've spoken to agrees and I have asked because I have heard this argument before.

Are these the same "economists" that advised Bernard Madoff

What you want are either rebates for educational institutes or a direct intervention with publishers and distributors.

NO what we want are cheap books for EVERYONE !

Okay I'll explain a little -
The reason retail books are so expensive is because of the UK (ironic, ain't it Midnight Wizard).
They produce higher quality A format books and local distributors have to stock books from them due to regional agreements. American B format books are lower quality but are half the price

WHO decides these regional agreements ?????

How come INTERSOFT books come from the USA then ?
How come in SA they cost ten times what they cost in the US ?
What sort of "arrangement "is that ?

I know the whole MEA thing and the way the World has been divided up.

This is not an excuse -- it IS a cop out !

Also the UK market can pay more for books, so when exporting to SA they don't care that South Africans have less money, the local arms of those publishers slap the same exorbitant price on the books and send it off to local retailers
(they determine the prices not local retailers, although Exclusive do mark-up their books further).
Also sales volumes in SA are low to begin with so you have to make more money out of each book because you aren't going to sell that many anyway.

Exclusive handle most of the SA publishers -- when are you going to tell us WHO owns Exclusive ?

HOW does this make economic sense -- surely the idea is to sell as many units as you can = bigger profit.

In the case of academic publishers of prescribed books - they know you have no other choice so you have to pay whatever they ask.

Again a legalised monopoly ! ( which is why Profs are always getting sent books for free from all the publishers -- so they can prescribe them )

For other publications it's the small volume produced that leads to the high prices.
The problem is there's not much the SA government can do since local publishers don't make large profits (actually more and more are closing down).

YES there is -- they can take away ALL taxes and duties on books.

but the treasury's viewpoint is [-]logical[/-]. I would add that I don't like it (I would love to see the price of books go down) but their perspective does make sense.

ILLOGICAL !

 

[Vrotappel]

You clearly have never purchased a textbook.

I really couldn't care less what older bestsellers cost. I do however care what a textbook costs. It isn't only rich people that go to school and require those books. Removing VAT will indeed benefit the poor even if they're buying second hand. As the price of new books falls so will the price of the second hand books.

Did the price of solar geysers drop when the subsidy on it increased? No, once government interferes the market simply sets the price again at equilibrium. The price of textbooks are not a function of the VAT amount levied on it, it is determined by the market. Remove VAT and the price will simply be increased to the point where equilibrium is reached.

 

[porchrat]

Did the price of solar geysers drop when the subsidy on it increased? No, once government interferes the market simply sets the price again at equilibrium. The price of textbooks are not a function of the VAT amount levied on it, it is determined by the market. Remove VAT and the price will simply be increased to the point where equilibrium is reached.

You have a point there actually.

 

[alloytoo]

Zero-rating anything compromises the integrity of the tax and increases compliance cost.

Zero rating should only be a mechanism to facilitate exporting goods.