On Bono and Kill the Boer

grayston

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It turns out that Hofmeyer is talking through his nose and that Bono’s statement perfectly captures the legal position in South Africa regarding utterances that could be construed as hate speech. As I have argued before, it would be constitutionally impermissible to ban such a song outright on the basis that it constitutes hate speech. Section 10 of the Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act states that:

no person may publish, propagate, advocate or communicate words based on one or more of the prohibited grounds, against any person, that could reasonably be construed to demonstrate a clear intention to be hurtful; be harmful or to incite harm; promote or propagate hatred.

Section 12 of the Act also seems to make an exception for “bona fide engagement in artistic creativity, academic and scientific inquiry, fair and accurate reporting in the public interest in accordance with section 16 of the Constitution”. In other words, songs or words that might have constituted hate speech in certain contexts, might not constitute hate speech in other contexts, depending on who utters it, where it is uttered and in what form it is uttered.

This means that what is required to establish that hate speech has occurred is for us to focus on the intention of the person who uttered the alleged hateful words or sang the alleged hateful song. Could it be reasonably construed by a well-informed, thoughtful and objective observer (therefore not Steve Hofmeyer) that the uttering of the words or the singing of the song in a particular context by a particular individual in a particular format demonstrated an intention to harm others because of their race, sex, gender, sexual orientation and the like.

The question is not whether some people were hurt or felt aggrieved by the singing of the song. It is not even whether some people like Hofmeyer have concluded that the song was sung with the intention to be hurtful to Afrikaners. The question is whether, objectively speaking, the fact and the context can lead to the reasonable conclusion that the person or group who sang the song had the intention to harm or hurt others on the basis of their race.

For example, if the Drakensberg Boys Choir sang “Kill the Boer, Kill the Farmer” at a choir competition in Vienna as part of a medley of struggle songs, no court in its right mind is going to find that the singing of the song in that context song constituted hate speech prohibited by section 10 of PEPUDA because they could not reasonably be construed to be having the intention to harm others on the basis of their race. If the song is used as part of a soundtrack of a documentary about the United Democratic Front and the uprising against the apartheid state in the nineteen eighties, one would be hard pressed, once again, to make a finding of hate speech. Neither would the homophobic utterances of a fictional character in Spud constitute hate speech.

Full article here:
http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/on-bonos-instinct-for-what-is-right-and-wrong/

In short: Bono was exactly right. It would be impossible to ban the singing of 'Kill the Boer' because the law's position on hate speech doesn't work that way. You can (possibly) ban people from singing it during incendiary occasions (like protest marches or strikes, for instance) but Julius Malema is quite right: he has a perfect right to sing the song unless it can be proved that he is using it to incite racial hatred.

As for Steve Mofmeyer ... I'm sure the guy has the greatest of intentions, but he's just throwing oil on the fire. The fact that he feels aggrieved by it doesn't make Malema's singing of 'Kill the boer' hate speech.

The fact that Malema sang 'Kill the boer' in order to stoke racial tension, makes his singing of 'Kill the boer' hate speech. But this still needs to be proved in the courts.
 
so it's okay for a few verkrampte dutchmen to sing "kill the native" at AWB rallies too.
 
so it's okay for a few verkrampte dutchmen to sing "kill the native" at AWB rallies too.

Any proof that that ever happened? What another racist post, but then again everyone will find this in good order and spirit.
 
Jeeezzzuzzzz....how this country will ever move fcking forward with people thinking this way is beyond me.

Using legal jargon to justify a song filled with hate is fcking stupid.
 
Any proof that that ever happened? What another racist post, but then again everyone will find this in good order and spirit.

If he did not say it that way, he would have implied that all Dutchmen do this, and have been flamed, but they do not. IT's just the verkramptes.
 
Jeeezzzuzzzz....how this country will ever move fcking forward with people thinking this way is beyond me.

Using legal jargon to justify a song filled with hate is fcking stupid.


+100

Its not oke to sing and dance when you singing about killing people. ANY people.
And if you think its oke, it says alot about the type of human you are.
 
Jeeezzzuzzzz....how this country will ever move fcking forward with people thinking this way is beyond me.

Using legal jargon to justify a song filled with hate is fcking stupid.

Best post in this thread and relevant too.
 
Jeeezzzuzzzz....how this country will ever move fcking forward with people thinking this way is beyond me.

Using legal jargon to justify a song filled with hate is fcking stupid.

The point is that you can't ban the song. You can't ban the song because it can be sung in many contexts which do not incite racial hatred. An example is made of using the song as a soundtrack to a documentary about the armed struggle in the 1980s.

You can punish people for singing the song in a context which would incite racial hatred - like the occasions where Julius Malema sang it. But the entity at fault in that situation is Julius Malema himself and not the song.
 
The point is that you can't ban the song. You can't ban the song because it can be sung in many contexts which do not incite racial hatred. An example is made of using the song as a soundtrack to a documentary about the armed struggle in the 1980s.

You can punish people for singing the song in a context which would incite racial hatred - like the occasions where Julius Malema sang it. But the entity at fault in that situation is Julius Malema himself and not the song.

I am sorry grayston...but I do not agree. How can you say a song that contains "Kill the Boer" which has got a very clear verb and a very specific group of people in mind is not inciting certain feelings? People are making this a extremely complex argument when it is in fact very simple. The song calls for Boere to be killed. THATS IT FOLKS. There is no context issues here. It does not matter who sings it, where they sing it or what their agenda is behind it.

Ban the fcking song and lets move on already. This topic is getting really old. I hate it when people make things so freaking complicated and try to justify something which is clearly wrong with this and that arguments. I would say exactly the same thing if the AWB went public and sang "Kill The Ka****" It is something that can not be excused or justified. Finished and klaar.!
 
The point is that you can't ban the song. You can't ban the song because it can be sung in many contexts which do not incite racial hatred. An example is made of using the song as a soundtrack to a documentary about the armed struggle in the 1980s.

.

Please give us an example of a context where this song does not incite racial hatred.
I don't think the song can be banned, I just think people should think a bit about the consequence of what they say or do.
I'm not even a boer and have little , if any afrikaans heritage ... but I find the song offensive in so many ways in any south african context. So what if it was "apparently" sung 20 years ago - it's fsking over already.
 
Do they ever use the word "native", I think they are not allowed too, it's against the "law".

Nope. Racism and Racist words aren't illegal. (As long as you don't infringe on someone else rights)
But they do expose stupidity on the side of people who use them
 
I hate it when people make things so freaking complicated and try to justify something which is clearly wrong with this and that arguments. I would say exactly the same thing if the AWB went public and sang "Kill The Ka****" It is something that can not be excused or justified. Finished and klaar.!

The Ousie is right. It's not complicated. Bringing legal technicalities into it is bull****. There is no context in which it is ok or can be justified.

Go to Israel and sing the Horst Wessel-lied and tell them some *** about it being part of your kulcha. See what happens.
 
Please give us an example of a context where this song does not incite racial hatred.

he already did, in the op and in a post further down the page.
take a look at amandla the movie. it looks at apartheid through music and the role it played in the struggle.
the context was a documentary about the past. it makes no qualitative assertion about the songs and views them historically.
which is not the context which malema and mokaba used their songs post-apartheid.
 
I am sorry grayston...but I do not agree. How can you say a song that contains "Kill the Boer" which has got a very clear verb and a very specific group of people in mind is not inciting certain feelings? People are making this a extremely complex argument when it is in fact very simple. The song calls for Boere to be killed. THATS IT FOLKS. There is no context issues here. It does not matter who sings it, where they sing it or what their agenda is behind it.

Ban the fcking song and lets move on already. This topic is getting really old. I hate it when people make things so freaking complicated and try to justify something which is clearly wrong with this and that arguments.

Hm. Well, it's a complicated world, and very few things boil down to simple black-and-white issues (pardon the pun). You see a simple situation (people singing hateful songs) and you want a simple solution (ban the hateful songs). Unfortunately, because the situation is not that simple, the solution is not going to work and will actually cause a lot of harm. Banning things is never the answer (one of the reasons why I occasionally use the word "kaffír" in this forum).

By refusing to entertain any debate on the issue of how a hateful song can be 'non-hatefully' sung - for example in historical contexts such as TV documentaries, or works of fiction, or for illustrative purposes - you are simply calling for a blanket ban on something that you, personally, find offensive in one specific situation: namely, Julius Malema's race rallies. In that context the song can be considered hate speech. In that context, anyone singing the song should receive appropriate punishment. But the song is not at fault: the person who sings it with the intention of causing harm is at fault.

By calling for the banning of the song you are completely missing the point, advocating soviet-era censorship, playing into the hands of Foolius himself, and making yourself look slightly simple. Sorry.
 
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