Ongoing Israeli-Palestinian Violence

[Cray]

Israel is under direct attack, and responds by taking out missile sites which Hamas locates in civilian areas.
US is not under direct attack, and blows up wedding parties without warning.

Compare the reaction to Hamas firing missiles into Israel, and starting wars, to that which follows Israel's retaliation.

Fact is, if Hamas stops these wars there would be no need for retaliatory strikes.

Perhaps if Israel stopped stealing land in West Bank and allowed all exiled Palestinians the right of return there would be no need for rocket strikes..

 

[Looney]

Perhaps if Israel stopped stealing land in West Bank and allowed all exiled Palestinians the right of return there would be no need for rocket strikes..

Perhaps if Palestinians would stop blowing themselves up in busses, restaurants, malls then perhaps Israel will?

Just a thought? See the catch 22

 

[Cray]

Perhaps if Palestinians would stop blowing themselves up in busses, restaurants, malls then perhaps Israel will?

Just a thought? See the catch 22

Completely agree - my response was trying to expose Kidkangaroo's attempt to put all the responsibility for the conflict on Hamas when it is clear both sides are to blame. I don't have the answers but neither side can expect the other to make all the concessions. Israel cannot expect Hamas to simply disarm and Hamas cannot expect Israel to simply give the land back. There has got to be small concessions from both sides leading up to something more concrete once trust had been established.... I cannot see this happening unfortunately.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Perhaps if Palestinians would stop blowing themselves up in busses, restaurants, malls then perhaps Israel will?

Just a thought? See the catch 22

Well, Israel didn't exactly help create a Palestinian state in the 40 years before Hamas existed, either.

Anyway, it's devolved into a pointless tit-for-tat long ago. Each side will just blame the other for every incident.

Nevertheless, Israel is holding the balance of power and isn't using it effectively to do the morally correct thing, or to ensure their own security.

Clearly the pathetic Arab states around won't be helping either, so they need to stop whining and actually get to it. Unfortunately there are too many hardliners with too much political influence in Israel, at the moment. Hopefully Hatnuah can make some inroads soon.

 

[Looney]

Completely agree - my response was trying to expose Kidkangaroo's attempt to put all the responsibility for the conflict on Hamas when it is clear both sides are to blame. I don't have the answers but neither side can expect the other to make all the concessions. Israel cannot expect Hamas to simply disarm and Hamas cannot expect Israel to simply give the land back. There has got to be small concessions from both sides leading up to something more concrete once trust had been established.... I cannot see this happening unfortunately.

Sir, you are the smartest man on these forums. I agree with you 100%. It's a sad situation that both sides cannot come to this realization. I only hope that one day the bloodshed will stop and that the Israelis and Palestinians can work together instead killing one another.

 

[Kidkaroo]

Cray, I see you refuse to speak to Hamas' use of human shields in apportioning blame.

Using your example, Israel should have bombed Tehran or Beirut in retaliation to Iranian inspired terrorism, carried out by Hezbollah, and aimed at Israeli civilians.

And this is what the The Doctrine of Proportionality says:
Under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, the death of civilians during an armed conflict, no matter how grave and regrettable does not constitute a war crime.... even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur. A crime occurs if there is an intentional attack directed against civilians


So, that would make Hamas guilty of war crimes under the doctrine, and not Israel.

 

[Looney]

Well, Israel didn't exactly help create a Palestinian state in the 40 years before Hamas existed, either.

Anyway, it's devolved into a pointless tit-for-tat long ago. Each side will just blame the other for every incident.

Nevertheless, Israel is holding the balance of power and isn't using it effectively to do the morally correct thing, or to ensure their own security.

Clearly the pathetic Arab states around won't be helping either, so they need to stop whining and actually get to it. Unfortunately there are too many hardliners with too much political influence in Israel, at the moment. Hopefully Hatnuah can make some inroads soon.

The conflict between Israel and the Palestinians existed long before Hamas was established. It didn't just suddenly start when Hamas was created.

 

[Kidkaroo]

Perhaps if Israel stopped stealing land in West Bank and allowed all exiled Palestinians the right of return there would be no need for rocket strikes..

Your entitled to your opinion, but not to your facts. Jordanian ruled West Bank was lost to Israel in a war of aggression. Again, if the Arabs had not started the wars there would have been none.

You're ignoring Hamas' covenant which calls for the death of all Jews.

 

[Kidkaroo]

Because that will remove any justification hamas has for continuing their attacks.

That same argument was used to remove all Jews from Gaza, but the violence continues.

Have you ever considered Hamas' covenant calling for the death of all Jews might play a role in the continuing attacks?

 

[Cray]

Cray, I see you refuse to speak to Hamas' use of human shields in apportioning blame.

Using your example, Israel should have bombed Tehran or Beirut in retaliation to Iranian inspired terrorism, carried out by Hezbollah, and aimed at Israeli civilians.

And this is what the The Doctrine of Proportionality says:
Under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, the death of civilians during an armed conflict, no matter how grave and regrettable does not constitute a war crime.... even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur. A crime occurs if there is an intentional attack directed against civilians


So, that would make Hamas guilty of war crimes under the doctrine, and not Israel.

I fully agree that the actions of Hamas in terms of firing from civilians areas is worthy of condemnation and would most likely be classified as war crimes. My problem is that Israel simply shrug their shoulders and fire anyway regardless of civilians casualties. Surely there must be a better way of dealing with Hamas than simply shelling buildings from afar.

With regards to war crimes, you might want to check this article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime

killing or punishing spies or other persons convicted of war crimes without a fair trial

wantonly destroying cities, towns, villages, or other objects not warranted by military necessity

A lot of people might suggest that demolishing the homes of families of suspected terrorists as well as the shelling of Gaza city would fall under those last aspects.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

The conflict between Israel and the Palestinians existed long before Hamas was established. It didn't just suddenly start when Hamas was created.

Indeed. My point being that blaming Hamas for everything is silly as they didn't spring forth from a vacuum. There's a whole lot of context and history that precedes current events, on both ends.

 

[Looney]

Indeed. My point being that blaming Hamas for everything is silly as they didn't spring forth from a vacuum. There's a whole lot of context and history that precedes current events, on both ends.

Agreed, however you must realize that Hamas is in control of Gaza and therefore they should be held accountable. It's the same as us South Africans holding the government accountable for all the crap that happens in SA. The government are in control of the country and should rightfully be held liable.

 

[Kidkaroo]

I fully agree that the actions of Hamas in terms of firing from civilians areas is worthy of condemnation and would most likely be classified as war crimes. My problem is that Israel simply shrug their shoulders and fire anyway regardless of civilians casualties. Surely there must be a better way of dealing with Hamas than simply shelling buildings from afar.

With regards to war crimes, you might want to check this article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime



A lot of people might suggest that demolishing the homes of families of suspected terrorists as well as the shelling of Gaza city would fall under those last aspects.

But Israel doesn't "simply shrug their shoulders and fire away regardless." They drop pamphlets, send texts, phone calls, etc. Hamas responds by moving more civilians into target areas, confident in the knowledge that Israel will get blamed while they get a free pass. (see above)

 

[Cray]

Your entitled to your opinion, but not to your facts. Jordanian ruled West Bank was lost to Israel in a war of aggression.

It may have been lost by Jordan but it's current status is that of an occupied territory under occupation.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/The-settlements-are-illegal-under-international-law-336507

By the fact that Israel conquered a territory that was inhabited by civilians who are not Israeli citizens (i.e. Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank), this makes the Fourth Geneva Convention applicable, and de jure, makes Israel’s control of the West Bank a military occupation.

If the Fourth Geneva Convention is applicable in the West Bank, than the question becomes whether Israeli settlements conform to Article 49(6) of the convention: “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.”

Again, if the Arabs had not started the wars there would have been none.

You're ignoring Hamas' covenant which calls for the death of all Jews.

Arabs does not automatically mean Palestinian, are Israel going to keep punishing the Palestinians because of the actions of Arab neighbours even though the term Arab describes many different tribes and cultures?

Hamas is not the same as Palestine, they are a political party and you cannot punish all Palestinians because of a party that is only support by 40% of the population.

 

[Cray]

But Israel doesn't "simply shrug their shoulders and fire away regardless." They drop pamphlets, send texts, phone calls, etc. Hamas responds by moving more civilians into target areas, confident in the knowledge that Israel will get blamed while they get a free pass. (see above)

Citations from reputable sources showing that Hamas move civilians into target areas?

 

[Cray]

I agree with you 100%. It's a sad situation that both sides cannot come to this realization. I only hope that one day the bloodshed will stop and that the Israelis and Palestinians can work together instead killing one another.

+1

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Agreed, however you must realize that Hamas is in control of Gaza and therefore they should be held accountable. It's the same as us South Africans holding the government accountable for all the crap that happens in SA. The government are in control of the country and should rightfully be held liable.

Of course they should be. And I'd love for Hamas to be completely obliterated, as they're a vile organisation. However, this won't happen using military means. This is quite obvious to anyone that actually looks at history and the results of every conflict like this.

So what I think should happen is that Israel should pursue attempts to snuff out Hamas' reason for existing, i.e. the lack of a viable, prosperous and independent Palestine. All they're doing at the moment is giving them more recruits. Every family that gets torn apart by Israeli artillery sends young, frustrated, hopeless, and desperate Palestinians into Hamas' arms.

At this stage Israel holds the balance of power, they control all the borders, they control the airspace, they control practically all the resources that goes into/out of Gaza and the West Bank. They need to use this to uplift moderate and peaceful Palestinians instead of constantly engaging in collective punishment and extending the settlements.

So, in short - make Hamas unwelcome in Palestine by giving the Palestinians an actual alternative future that isn't filled with only bullets and bombs.

 

[Kidkaroo]

Citations from reputable sources showing that Hamas move civilians into target areas?

You really disputing the fact that Hamas uses human shields? Here's a Hamas spokesman from on the subject.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuNQvPh8XKA

 

[daveza]

Have you ever considered Hamas' covenant calling for the death of all Jews might play a role in the continuing attacks?

Dear god, if this old chestnut didn't exist I'm sure the Pro-Israel lot would not sleep well.

20,000 members of hamas - 1,7 million palestinians.

How about Israel go in and deal with the smaller number once and for all then we can all find another reason to carry on this tit for tat childishness.

 

[daveza]

You really disputing the fact that Hamas uses human shields?

The IDF refer to civilians used as human shields as hostages - I'm sure the idea is to kill the hostage takers without killing the hostages.