'Our constitution does not work'

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Debbie

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I agree on the accountability, although the constitution provides for this, perhaps enforcement is really the issue, but the god argument is subjective as are the rights accorded to criminals, when we selectively apply rights we enter dangerous territory. Comparison with the American constitution is just insulting. Can anyone say 'political manoeuvring'?
 
Very interesting read Debbie....

And there are a few things in there that I didn't know, esp about the Limitation Clause... that is v intriguing, I shall have to investigate this.
 
Good article Debbie.
It shows clearly that the SA constituion is nothing more than just another piece of useless government paper.
 
Turiko said:
Good article Debbie.
It shows clearly that the SA constituion is nothing more than just another piece of useless government paper.
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Seriously, you don't believe in the South African constitution (unless you're being ironic)? Why do you live here then? There may be things wrong with some of our laws, but our constitution is brilliant. It's not 'government paper' it was based on the best constitutions in the world and submissions from citizens. Of all the things that make me proud to be a South African our constitution is at the top of my list.

At best that was an interesting piece of political rhetoric, not a 'good article', let's not pretend it's serious commentary from a journalist or politcal expert and the opinions expressed are coincidentally protected by the document being criticised.
 
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Our constitution is not brilliant. It should have been absolute. On the other hand the US constitution is absolute, but that has not prevented unconstitutional laws from being passed and continuing to remain in effect. Their system has also failed to prevent vested interests from corrupting the political system.

and God
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And I can tell you that Odin is mighty displeased.
 
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oronte said:
Seriously, you don't believe in the South African constitution (unless you're being ironic)? Why do you live here then? There may be things wrong with some of our laws, but our constitution is brilliant. It's not 'government paper' it was based on the best constitutions in the world and submissions from citizens. Of all the things that make me proud to be a South African our constitution is at the top of my list.

At best that was an interesting piece of political rhetoric, not a 'good article', let's not pretend it's serious commentary from a journalist or politcal expert and the opinions expressed are coincidentally protected by the document being criticised.
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I express my opinion, and I am backed up about it and I get told to leave :rolleyes:

Charles Nquakula syndrome is alive and well here.
 
oronte said:
Seriously, you don't believe in the South African constitution (unless you're being ironic)? Why do you live here then? There may be things wrong with some of our laws, but our constitution is brilliant. It's not 'government paper' it was based on the best constitutions in the world and submissions from citizens. Of all the things that make me proud to be a South African our constitution is at the top of my list.

At best that was an interesting piece of political rhetoric, not a 'good article', let's not pretend it's serious commentary from a journalist or politcal expert and the opinions expressed are coincidentally protected by the document being criticised.
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Im sorry but a constitution that does not give the public a choice in who they elect as president is not a democratic constitution.

Thats the biggest gripe I have with our constitution.
 
Turiko said:
I express my opinion, and I am backed up about it and I get told to leave :rolleyes:

Charles Nquakula syndrome is alive and well here.
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You're conflating my comments. I didn't say you should leave, I'm asking why you live in a country when you don't believe in something as fundamental as the constitution, really I'm asking you to think about it before making such a serious accusation. Backed up? By whom? You just agreed with commentary written by an opposition party and called the constitution 'worthless' without any explanation. By all means express an opinion but have some reason for it, the constitution is the most fundamental document in the law of any country, it deserves some respect, we're not talking about an ANC Youth League members statements here. It might be worthless to you, but the constitution is the foundation on which our country functions. It's worth protecting. We should always debate it's content, but you go too far with a throwaway statement like 'it's a worthless piece of government paper'. Even if it means nothing to you (and that should not be the case if you call yourself a South African) it means something to the rest of us.
 
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Most of the problems pointed out in the article flow from a concentration of power in one party's hands, rather than from the constitution itself.


Generator Man said:
Im sorry but a constitution that does not give the public a choice in who they elect as president is not a democratic constitution.

Thats the biggest gripe I have with our constitution.
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:confused:

Of course you have a choice - the various parties elect their leaders and other representatives, and you cast your vote based on that (and other issues). That's the way it works in most democracies, except the US where it's the other way round (but you're still choosing between the choices put forward by the political parties). It's not perfect, but then whose constitution is?
 
Turiko said:
I express my opinion, and I am backed up about it and I get told to leave :rolleyes:

Charles Nquakula syndrome is alive and well here.
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Hence my saying that it's not really the fault of the current government when they come up with Nqakula-like statements. It's been an old SA tradition to stick one's head in the sand and kick at anyone that criticizes thy beloveth country....:rolleyes:
 
Well, we've just had abundant proof that our constitution isn't a nice smelling as some have said it is. In fact, our constitution is being by-passed and that it allows this is also cause for concern.

Right now the highest office in the land is the ANC's NEC. You cannot tell me that the ANC has some 20 million members. Sure, it may have had that many voters but those people voted for parliament, not for the NEC. The NEC has no mandate whatsoever to set policy and, frankly, I am more than a little sick and tired of these so called politcal analysts who wax lyrical about democracy in action. Boy, do we attact a lot of idiots but I suppose if you can't get a job you can always be a commentator.

So where are the 400-odd (or is that 400 odd) people who undertook an oath to uphold the constitution? Parliament has well and truely failed the people of South Africa. Lock those traitors up I say.
 
Albereth said:
Well, we've just had abundant proof that our constitution isn't a nice smelling as some have said it is. In fact, our constitution is being by-passed and that it allows this is also cause for concern.

Right now the highest office in the land is the ANC's NEC. You cannot tell me that the ANC has some 20 million members. Sure, it may have had that many voters but those people voted for parliament, not for the NEC. The NEC has no mandate whatsoever to set policy and, frankly, I am more than a little sick and tired of these so called politcal analysts who wax lyrical about democracy in action. Boy, do we attact a lot of idiots but I suppose if you can't get a job you can always be a commentator.

So where are the 400-odd (or is that 400 odd) people who undertook an oath to uphold the constitution? Parliament has well and truely failed the people of South Africa. Lock those traitors up I say.
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As chiskop said, the problem is not the constituition, but rather the power placed in the party.

Lets face it guys, the ANC has such overwhelming power becuase an overwhelming amount of voters put them in that position. So I don't understand when people say they don't have a say in who becomes president. They did in 1994, 1999 and 2004. They picked the ANC, and only the ANC itself can decide WHO it places in positions of power.

Having said that, the ANC develops policies itself and based on them, they go to the voting public, and the vast majority of voters agreed with them and voted them in. It's that simple.

To now go and want to change the rules of the game (the constitution), just becuase some people do not like the result, defies the clear will of the people who voted the ANC into power, three times in a row.

* waits for the usual responses of the voting public is stupid and don't know what is good for them*
 
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The problem is indeed not the constitution. I am saying the govt makes it to be a useless piece of paper because they do what they like regardless.
 
Turiko said:
The problem is indeed not the constitution. I am saying the govt makes it to be a useless piece of paper because they do what they like regardless.
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I say the problem is the consitution because it allows parliament to become subject to political inteference :)

And to sox63 too, guys, don't miss the point. Parliament is elected by the population, not the NEC, not the party. There are no checks and balances over the party, much less the NEC and I don't really care how democratic that Polokwane process was - it doesn't make it right for a bunch of lunatics on a limited ticket to rule the country - that's what we have parliament for.

I'd wager that the current set up is less representative of the people than the apartheid government ever was.
 
Albereth said:
I say the problem is the consitution because it allows parliament to become subject to political inteference :)

And to sox63 too, guys, don't miss the point. Parliament is elected by the population, not the NEC, not the party. There are no checks and balances over the party, much less the NEC and I don't really care how democratic that Polokwane process was - it doesn't make it right for a bunch of lunatics on a limited ticket to rule the country - that's what we have parliament for.

I'd wager that the current set up is less representative of the people than the apartheid government ever was.
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I think you're the one missing the point, in SA we vote for a party. Then the party selects the people to become MPs.
 
Democracy is reliant on tension and division- it is tension and division which makes democracy work. Separation of powers (ie/eg, the exec, judic, legislat) is one formal expression of this tension and division. There are informal expressions too (this is very obvious in the american democracy).

Having one strong party has the effect of dissolving - or diluting - the tensions and divisions that naturally arise from the nature of the democratic structure, thereby making for a weak democracy.
 
sox63 said:
I think you're the one missing the point, in SA we vote for a party. Then the party selects the people to become MPs.
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Thats exactly what I was trying to say.

Even the election of the presidential candidate is an internal process, the ANC could well kick Zuma out after the 2009 election is won and put Malema as president, what power do the people have? You vote for the party, the party has carte blanch to appoint whoever they like through a secret internal ballot.
 
Generator Man said:
Thats exactly what I was trying to say.

Even the election of the presidential candidate is an internal process, the ANC could well kick Zuma out after the 2009 election is won and put Malema as president, what power do the people have? You vote for the party, the party has carte blanch to appoint whoever they like through a secret internal ballot.
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So, vote for a party that you think is less likely to do something like that.

And Albereth, yes parties and their personnel change. The same thing has happened in the UK. And in Israel and Japan in the last week.

It's far from ideal, but at least we know we have an election in the next 6-7 months. Short of having elections more frequently, how do you suggest we deal we things like this?
 
The general population at branch level nominates the party candindates. Further to that they send representatives to the national conference with a mandate as to how to vote.
You don't have to be part of the NEC to have your say since the same NEC is an elected body.
 
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