Photography lessons

This is a common misconception.
Nope it's true. Sampling at 12 or 14 bits will always produce a higher range compared to 8 bits. When the camera applies jpeg conversion with the corresponding colour space and gamma curve it will make decision on how to treat the image. Typically most modern digital cameras will "underexpose" slightly in this process in order to preserve highlights, at the expense of shadow detail, because the cameras treat midtones as the most important for detail. If you are careful with your subject and your manual exposure settings, you can obviously mitigate this to a certain extent, but not the level where you just have more information at hand.

Not true. The highlights get clipped by the chip, before it even gets to the DSP. If you clipped your highlights too much, you have to ditch the shot. Unlike film, chips don't have a gradual overload.
Of course chips clip highlights, but that's not the point. JPEG will flatten highlights or lose shadow detail before posterising midtones. RAW with more samples gives the photographer more control over the final image which may even be a JPEG.


Fuji SuperCCD cameras do, but most digital cameras don't. Having said that, the Fuji cameras work just as well in jpeg.
As far as I can see Fuji cameras only operate in JPEG... I didn't know they still made a DSLR. And IIRC the Super CCD tries to increase sensitivity range (i.e. luminance), by incorporating additional luminance sensors. Not really relevant in this discussion.
And what about film scanned to jpeg? No highlight clipping there!
As soon as you apply a colour space and a gamma curve, you need to discard some information. I can't see why this is such a big issue for you. If you're happy with JPEG, carry on.


Actually, the only reason a person gets overexposed shots is because he/she does not know how to drive their camera. The format has nothing to do with it.
I'm glad the meter in your camera is god-like perfect. I really don't believe that every mixed lighting shot you've taken has turned out perfectly exposed with all the detail that you wanted. If that was the case companies Nikon and Sony wouldn't integrate D-Lighting and DRO processing engines into their cameras. By using this technology, they overcome some of the problems prevalent in in-camera RAW-JPEG conversion - but at an expense: processing times are longer. Using RAW files and post-processing gives the same or better results.

So does jpeg. The only benefit of soothing raw, that I can see, is being able to set your WB in post. This can be helpful if your camera has bad WB under tungsten light, for example. Smaller WB adjustments can easily be done on jpegs.
Actually smaller/finer adjustments are harder to do since there are not as many levels in an 8-bit file.

Today's digital cameras make great jpegs, and shooting in raw is throwing half of the camera away. The camera is not just a chip. The Nikon D300 makes the best jpegs I have ever seen. I can't recreate that in raw, and why should I if I can get the jpeg from the cam?
The Nikon RAW conversion software uses the same engine as the camera, so there is no reason that you "can't recreate that in raw", it does however give you control over some of the decisions that the camera is making for you.

Nonsense. The dynamic range of the photo is created by you, the photographer, and your ability to see light and knowing how to use your chosen format (knowing its limits), whether it's print film, slide film or digital.
You're spouting nonsense now. Basically you're saying that you should accept the limits of a tool, despite knowing that there are ways to circumvent them. Also dynamic range is a technical term which you dont seem to understand. The photographer cannot "create" dynamic range, he can try to capture a scene with as much dynamic range as possible, but his limit will be the tool he uses to do so, be it a sensor or a film emulsion. Range isn't the contrast ratio (how light to how dark) but the number of graduations in between.

The compression from the camera is low enough. It's not mathematically lossless, but it's very good.
Compression as such isn't the issue, as I've said before. The loss comes from sampling at a lower bitrate.

As I said before, it's got more to do with the sensitivity of your chip, which makes this a moot point.
The problem is that the chip is more capable than you think.

Get over it. It's all in your mind. :D
I'm not telling you to convert, I'm just suggesting that what is good for you, may not be ideal for everyone. I shoot mostly in JPEG, not because I think it's better, but because I shoot stuff that moves a lot, and I prefer having a faster camera response. It's a compromise that I've accepted, but I'll never tell someone that it's better than RAW.
 
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Nope it's true. Sampling at 12 or 14 bits will always produce a higher range compared to 8 bits.
Yes, that's true, but I was talking about photography. (digital cameras)


When the camera applies jpeg conversion with the corresponding colour space and gamma curve it will make decision on how to treat the image. Typically most modern digital cameras will "underexpose" slightly in this process in order to preserve highlights, at the expense of shadow detail, because the cameras treat midtones as the most important for detail. If you are careful with your subject and your manual exposure settings, you can obviously mitigate this to a certain extent, but not the level where you just have more information at hand.
I'm not following. What do you mean by, most digital cams underexpose? Most Canons overexpose, as do lots of Nikons. The D80 has a bad exposures meter (it's all over the place - I could not believe it), the D300 has a very good exposure meter and the D40 overexposes, but that's what exposure compensation is for. My Canon 300D overexposed all the time, so I just used exposure compensation. Problem solved.


Of course chips clip highlights, but that's not the point.
That's exactly the point. Chips clip highlights, and therefore you must compensate for it. You do this with timing, lighting, composition, knowing how to use your camera and understanding it's limits. I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but it's very true. If you stuffed up your photo, raw won't save you.


As far as I can see Fuji cameras only operate in JPEG... I didn't know they still made a DSLR. And IIRC the Super CCD tries to increase sensitivity range (i.e. luminance), by incorporating additional luminance sensors. Not really relevant in this discussion.
It is, because you said jpegs clip your highlights. The S5 Pro proves otherwise, as does scanned film. Both have a gradual overload curve that's still there in jpeg.


I can't see why this is such a big issue for you. If you're happy with JPEG, carry on.
It's not a big issue for me. I was just trying to explain something. It's an issue to you, as you responded to my post.


I'm glad the meter in your camera is god-like perfect.
LOL dude. I've always said that most meters are off by a lot. I don't understand what you are saying. I was talking about jpeg/raw, not the meter. You must get your exposures right in the first place.


Actually smaller/finer adjustments are harder to do since there are not as many levels in an 8-bit file.
So what?


The Nikon RAW conversion software uses the same engine as the camera, so there is no reason that you "can't recreate that in raw", it does however give you control over some of the decisions that the camera is making for you.
Yes it does.


You're spouting nonsense now. Basically you're saying that you should accept the limits of a tool, despite knowing that there are ways to circumvent them. Also dynamic range is a technical term which you dont seem to understand. The photographer cannot "create" dynamic range, he can try to capture a scene with as much dynamic range as possible, but his limit will be the tool he uses to do so, be it a sensor or a film emulsion. Range isn't the contrast ratio (how light to how dark) but the number of graduations in between.
What I mean is you need to find a nice scene to photograph.


The problem is that the chip is more capable than you think.
Does not fix the crappy light in a crappy photo.


Stop worrying about the technical things. I use to be just like you about raw. It took me 3 years to realize that I was wasting time and CF card space. I could get the exact same image on jpeg as on raw. That was an old Canon 300D. What the Nikon D300 can do is way beyond that.
 
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Yes, that's true, but I was talking about photography. (digital cameras)
So was I. Having 12 bits of information allows for 4096 levels per pixel. 8 bit allows for 256. Not a trivial difference.

I'm not following. What do you mean by, most digital cams underexpose? Most Canons overexpose, as do lots of Nikons. The D80 has a bad exposures meter (it's all over the place - I could not believe it), the D300 has a very good exposure meter and the D40 overexposes, but that's what exposure compensation is for. My Canon 300D overexposed all the time, so I just used exposure compensation. Problem solved.
Try reading my point again, I was not talking about metering but about processing. The jpeg engine in a digital camera will usually try to salvage highlights and midtones at the expense of shadow detail.

That's exactly the point. Chips clip highlights, and therefore you must compensate for it. You do this with timing, lighting, composition, knowing how to use your camera and understanding it's limits. I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but it's very true. If you stuffed up your photo, raw won't save you.
but if your camera stuffs up your photo, RAW might just be the solution. Mixed lighting situations are very difficult to expose correctly (no matter how good a photographer you are), and that is where the additional dynamic range of RAW can help. I'm not a RAW evangelist, I just understand that it can be a very useful tool. You seem to be on a crusade against it.

It is, because you said jpegs clip your highlights. The S5 Pro proves otherwise, as does scanned film. Both have a gradual overload curve that's still there in jpeg.
You're misquoting me again, I said that the jpeg engine will have to decide to clip highlights or lose shadow detail in many shots, purely because that the limitation of dynamic range means that failure to do so will cause posterisation in the midtones. If you only have 256 levels and spread them over a large range of lighting, you'll end up with luminance and colour banding. I've never used a Fuji so don't know the results, but I can't see how it will overcome this problem.

It's not a big issue for me. I was just trying to explain something. It's an issue to you, as you responded to my post.
It's an issue for me because your argument is false. You claim that jpeg is as good as raw and it isn't. For your uses it may perform as well as you need, but that doesn't make it as good for all situations.

LOL dude. I've always said that most meters are off by a lot. I don't understand what you are saying. I was talking about jpeg/raw, not the meter. You must get your exposures right in the first place.
the poor metering is what causes problems in mixed lighting and where RAW can save you... must I use shorter words? ;)
 
^^

Been away for a while. This has been fascinating.

Does it make me a sell-out if I use both?

Dro on Sony's makes great jpgs. i still choose to shoot lots of raw though.
 
^^

Been away for a while. This has been fascinating.

Does it make me a sell-out if I use both?

Dro on Sony's makes great jpgs. i still choose to shoot lots of raw though.
Oh make up your mind . . . :p Memory cards arent exactly expensive anymore so why not :)
 
Dont normally use both at the same time. Sometimes jpg and sometimes raw. But you are right, cards are cheap enough these days;)
 
I was thinking I might do a RAW/JPG comparison with some landscape shots but I need to figure out what JPG settings I should use.

ldmelsa - would you recommend the "Landscape" picture style (for obvious reasons :)) or that custom one you provided me with a while back?
 
I was thinking I might do a RAW/JPG comparison with some landscape shots but I need to figure out what JPG settings I should use.

ldmelsa - would you recommend the "Landscape" picture style (for obvious reasons :)) or that custom one you provided me with a while back?

I don't like/understand the Canon "picture styles".
Just set it up till it looks right to you.
 
I don't like/understand the Canon "picture styles".
Just set it up till it looks right to you.
How can you set up anything using that little LCD?
 
Yeah, that's a problem on the 400D. The 5D is even worse.
The 40D has an accurate screen, I think.
Its a decent size screen but still way to small to be doing colour correction on.

How about those picture settings you gave me a while back?
 
Its a decent size screen but still way to small to be doing colour correction on.

How about those picture settings you gave me a while back?

Those were the settings of my 300D. I guess you could try them.
 
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I can't tell either.

#1 looks better than #2
why?
#2 has boring flat light
#1 has nice soft light on the cat with dark background
it's better because of the light
not because the one is (was) raw and the other is jpeg

#1 = raw
#2 = jpeg
 
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