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Poetry Can't be Meaningless
- Thread starter Nick333
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SoulTax
Executive Member
Some context on what inspired this thread maybe? Or is it some general thought that rambled around to the front of your head.
Nick333
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Just a response to porchrats cynical deconstruction of whatsisnames saccharine but harmless bit of poetic fluff in the now mysteriously closed thread.
I'm just getting a bit annoyed by the knee jerk reaction against anything that smells slightly spiritual. They're not even particularly reasonable or reasoned responses. I wanted to point out the irony in describing something as poetic but meaningless. It's at least more logically consistent than being literal but meaningless.
I'm just getting a bit annoyed by the knee jerk reaction against anything that smells slightly spiritual. They're not even particularly reasonable or reasoned responses. I wanted to point out the irony in describing something as poetic but meaningless. It's at least more logically consistent than being literal but meaningless.
D34M0n7
Executive Member
Poetry can be meaningless.
Its a relative matter, if I see no meaning in it then there is none. To me that is.
A poem can imply something and it could be argued that from that point it has meaning, but poems are also open to interpretation and if no meaning can be derived from the poem (for whatever reason) then it is meaningless to the reader.
Its a relative matter, if I see no meaning in it then there is none. To me that is.
A poem can imply something and it could be argued that from that point it has meaning, but poems are also open to interpretation and if no meaning can be derived from the poem (for whatever reason) then it is meaningless to the reader.
porchrat
Honorary Master
It wasn't spiritual as far as I could see. Just a silly attempt at emotionally ambiguous waffle.
Also I have no problem with poetry. I enjoy poetry. However some stuff can be poetic (note not actually poetry) and still be meaningless.
Nick333
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Sure, but interpreting poetry so that it has no meaning as a basis for criticism is meaningless as long as anyone finds meaning in it. Your argument can be countered by any other interpretation.
It's a childish approach.
A stupid person who doesn't speak any African languages commenting on African language dramas on TV said: " These black programs are just there to create jobs for friends. They make no sense to me."
True story, and what I was reminded of when I read the poetic but meaningless comment.
Nick333
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No, you don't get to decide if poetry has meaning or not. The fact that its poetic implies it has meaning for someone. You get to critique it on how well it conveys meaning not on whether you like or agree with the meaning. That's a job for philosophical debate. No point debating a philosophical point if you can't be sure of the meaning. Perhaps if you absolutely had to criticise you should have asked for clarification.
Nick333
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Actually, I quite like the little "poem". I think the sentiments are quite Buddhist in nature.
I particularly like the line about a mind that never minds. I can think of a lot of things that bother me that shouldn't. Ultimately being bothered, even by things we feel should be bothered by serves no purpose. Of course it all depends on interpreting mind as meaning being overly bothered by. Or we could assume it means being bothered at all in which case the author must mean we shouldn't even bothered by, say, a rusty nail sticking through our foot. Of course that would ridiculous.
I particularly like the line about a mind that never minds. I can think of a lot of things that bother me that shouldn't. Ultimately being bothered, even by things we feel should be bothered by serves no purpose. Of course it all depends on interpreting mind as meaning being overly bothered by. Or we could assume it means being bothered at all in which case the author must mean we shouldn't even bothered by, say, a rusty nail sticking through our foot. Of course that would ridiculous.
D34M0n7
Executive Member
As I said, its a relative matter. And its not childish or meaningless at all.
The poem can have meaning for some people, sure, but it can also mean nothing to others.
I could say the same thing... How can a poem have meaning if to some it has none.
I understand that there are other ways to look at it but it does not change that fact that interpretation is key when it comes to poetry.
Lets look at it from another angle though, from the viewpoint of the poet.
The poet could have written the poem to convey a message, from this we could say that the poem does have a meaning...
I think thats the view you are taking, but thats not how language works.
Lets take for example a conversation between an Italian and a Russian.
The Russian could be describing (in Russian) the weather to the Italian. Everything that comes out of the Russians mouth has meaning, yes. But to the Italian (who does not speak Russian in this case) it has none.
You can't look at one side and one side only, you have to take into account whats implied and whats understood or interpreted.
This is why its a relative matter.
I'm not saying just because I find a poem meaningless that it is meaningless to everyone, no, what I'm saying is to me the poem means nothing and therefore to me it is meaningless, so your point is now moot. Similarly if anyone finds meaning in it then to them it has meaning, that does not make it a meaningful poem to others.
porchrat
Honorary Master
poetic != poetry
Implies != actuality
That is assuming it has meaning. Which you seem to do by default. Basically telling me what can and can't have meaning... which I think you just said I can't do... I suppose you are special though
It is quite possible to write something that is so nonsensical that it carries no meaning. If it wasn't we wouldn't need to bother teaching grammar or definitions or anything like that because regardless of how you used the language people would gather meaning from it.
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D34M0n7
Executive Member
Table hatchet going penny verb national normal heffalump hurry.
porchrat
Honorary Master
P
Picard
Guest
I think there might be a googlewhack in this sentence.
D34M0n7
Executive Member
I completely agree with D34M0n7. A simple poem like "the cat sat on the mat" is as meaningless as the conversation going on behind me on a bus. To those having the conversation, its meaningfull, yet to me its meaningless. And you can't be the one that tells me what's meaningfull in my life.
porchrat
Honorary Master
Indeed
You know you're bloody good at that. I can't for the life of me write nonsense sentences.
Well done.
D34M0n7
Executive Member
Yes, well, if you spent enough time in a tankard of viscous radioactive hydrogenated deuterium you'd be pretty good at dishing out nonsensical prattle like gibberish.