Preadaptations

[Phronesis]

Hi there Phronesis,

Genomes and genetic codes. Perhaps mine is a cracked comment to place here in so scientific a discussion - but please your comment in any case.

I am a simple man re creationism and / vs evolution. Energy rising, to matter, to life, to mind, to god/ spirit. I struggle to find points to argue either side of the debate. Most arguments have a level of sanity somewhere.

If there are these examples of information within genetic codes in cells that do not require this (?) then is it possible that all cells have access to all genetic history - as in NOW - (ignoring the concept of past and future). Do you think that this "info" is stored "off-site", to be accessed at will - aparrently purely co-incidentally - or chaotic?

"Ignorance is Bliss"

Hi Syrius 10,

I don't know if the information wasn't required, it probably was.
With regards to your genetic history question, I am not entirely sure if I understand you correctly, but I think the genetic make-up of an organism is in effect the result of past processes and mechanisms. The information is there. How cellular mechanisms access information through transcription, translation and other controlled mechanisms is an active area of research.
Be sure to look out for research on epigenetics. Fascinating work there.


More preadaptations.
Billion-year Revision Of Plant Evolution Timeline May Stem From Discovery Of Lignin In Seaweed

ScienceDaily (Jan. 29, 2009) — Land plants' ability to sprout upward through the air, unsupported except by their own woody tissues, has long been considered one of the characteristics separating them from aquatic plants, which rely on water to support them.

Now lignin, one of the chemical underpinnings vital to the self-supporting nature of land plants – and thought unique to them – has been found in marine algae by a team of researchers including scientists at UBC and Stanford University.

"All land plants evolved from aquatic green algae and scientists have long believed that lignin evolved after plants took to land as a mechanical adaptation for stabilizing upright growth and transporting water from the root," says Martone, an assistant professor in the UBC Dept. of Botany, where he is continuing his work on lignin.

"Because red and green algae likely diverged more than a billion years ago, the discovery of lignin in red algae suggests that the basic machinery for producing lignin may have existed long before algae moved to land."

Alternatively, algae and land plants may have evolved the identical compound independently, after they diverged.

"The pathways, enzymes and genes that go into making this stuff are pretty complicated, so to come up with all those separately would be really, really amazing," says Denny. "Anything is possible, but that would be one hell of a coincidence."

The team's finding provides a new perspective on the early evolution of lignified support tissues – such as wood – on land, since the seaweed tissues that are most stressed by waves crashing on shore appear to contain the most lignin, possibly contributing to mechanical support, says Martone.

Well what do you know. Looks like trees were on the cards loooong before they even existed. Lignin, bobbing around in algae, and when the time was right, was co-opted into its functional potential in plants.

Innovations for plants looong before plants even existed. Kind of exactly the opposite of slow accumulation of lucky accidents.

 

[rwenzori]

Well, let's take a look at the latest from the land of the ID slubberdegullions™.

Firstly, definitions.

Preadaptations (aka exaptations) are features that perform a function but was(sic) not produced by natural selection for its current use. - TelePhrone

Wikipedia:

In evolutionary biology, preadaptation describes a situation where an organism uses a preexisting anatomical structure inherited from an ancestor for a potentially unrelated purpose.
...

Some biologists dislike the term 'preadaptation' as it could imply an intentional plan, which is contrary to the nature of evolution. Some alternative terms that have been suggested include "co-option" and exaptation.

So we have some algae gunk living in the sea. To evolve via seaweed into trees, this gunk has to have something called "lignin" which helps plants transport water, and also gives strength to plant and algae structures. Such has been found.

Said slubberdegullions™ would have us running around crying "Miracle! Miracle!":

Innovations for plants looong before plants even existed. Kind of exactly the opposite of slow accumulation of lucky accidents.

BUT! Take a look at the algae - not just tiny spores bobbing around - rather, largish plant-like structures that could not exist ( and could not have evolved ) without something to support those structures. Strangely enough "the seaweed tissues that are most stressed by waves crashing on shore appear to contain the most lignin". Wow! I wonder why? Crashing waves, structural strength, hard to put those together! Am I hearing a slight echo of "natural selection"?

Then just an small evolutionary hop-skip-jump and you have land plants and trees LOL!

No "lucky accidents", no "Bebeh Jebus did it", just the normal evolutionary processes at work. Amazing!

 

[Phronesis]

Firstly, definitions.



Wikipedia:

No need for you to get hung up on definitions again. Nobody else complained about it, live with it.

So we have some algae gunk living in the sea. To evolve via seaweed into trees, this gunk has to have something called "lignin" which helps plants transport water, and also gives strength to plant and algae structures. Such has been found.

It first made sense that it was limited to trees, hence the surprise. They also just speculate it "accumulated" in response to mechanical stress but don't suggest any idea how it came about that it just accumulated. The basic machinery may have been there loooong before algae was on the scene, but they don't say. They also speculate that it may be convergent evolution. Awesome, looks like it was inevitable that the machinery necessary to make it in different organism was going to emerge anyway. No natural selection, just good old inevitable emergent biochemistry .

Now remember Trichoplax? That little animal at the base of the eukaryotic evolutionary tree with tool kits for eyes, body plans, nerves etc. yet only has four cell types? Check out this gene:
GATA-1

This gene encodes a protein which belongs to the GATA family of transcription factors. The protein plays an important role in erythroid development by regulating the switch of fetal hemoglobin to adult hemoglobin.

A tool kit part for red blood cells... at the base of the eukaryotic tree. Fascinating don't you think?

And check out this interesting finding:
Billions Of Years Ago, Microbes Were Key In Developing Modern Nitrogen Cycle

ScienceDaily (Mar. 3, 2009) — As the world marks the 200th anniversary of Charles Darwin's birth, there is much focus on evolution in animals and plants. But new research shows that for the countless billions of tiniest creatures – microbes – large-scale evolution was completed 2.5 billion years ago.

Setting the stage so life can make use of nitrogen and unlock future evolutionary pathways. Just like the multi-cellular evolutionary pathways were unlocked when atmospheric oxygen concentrations were raised (by life itself), thereby unleashing the capabilities of the hedghog protein signaling pathway. Interestingly the ONLY example of sterolation of a protein in contemporary biology, and funny enough, oxygen is needed for cholesterol synthesis, more importantly, oxygen is needed for placing the hydroxyl group in the 3-position of cholesterol which plays a crucial role in subsequent transformations (including sterolation).

Aah, science. The teleological craft: A purposeful endeavour in search of truth

 

[rwenzori]

Fascinating don't you think?

Personally I find it boring - it's not a field that particularly interests me. But then, I am not on a fruitless quest to discover Bebeh Jebus pushing atoms and molecules around.

Aah, science. The teleological craft: A purposeful endeavour in search of truth

Yes, but how many times does it have to demonstrate to you the power of evolutionary processes ( like the lignin in the algae LOL! ) before you stop trying to find alternative mysterious explanations?


< Is it time to edit that post again? Maybe later I think. >

 

[Phronesis]

Personally I find it boring -

Then leave science to people that are actually interested in science. You know... the people that don't think everything is nonsense that happens for no reason .

 

[rwenzori]

Then leave science to people that are actually interested in science. You know... the people that don't think everything is nonsense that happens for no reason .

Don't misinterpret there again TelePhrone! Most science is fascinating - endless repetitions of the same-old same-old biological processes based upon evolution and natural selection while trying to punt imaginary teleology are what is boring.

 

[Phronesis]

Don't misinterpret there again TelePhrone! Most science is fascinating - endless repetitions of the same-old same-old biological processes based upon evolution and natural selection while trying to punt imaginary teleology are what is boring.

Lol, if you say so Mr. "boring materialist everything is nonsense that happens for no reason" .

 

[w1z4rd]

How to spot a hidden religious agenda = Phrony

Im thinking this thread would look great in the PD section since there appears to be an easy to spot (read the links peeps) hidden religious agenda going on here.

 

[Phronesis]

"]How to spot a hidden religious agenda[/SIZE] = Phrony

Im thinking this thread would look great in the PD section since there appears to be an easy to spot (read the links peeps) hidden religious agenda going on here.

Yeah, uhm, if you could actually keep the discussion limited to preadaptations, you wouldn't have to complain. Are you capable of that?

Amazing that you haven't realized that the only people dragging this thread down into a PD quality thread are those who are not particularly fond of discussing science in a litlle MORE detail. LIKE YOU.

Enough said.

 

[alloytoo]

Yeah, uhm, if you could actually keep the discussion limited to preadaptations, you wouldn't have to complain. Are you capable of that?

But your definition of "Preadaptations" belongs in the PD section....whereas others may not.

 

[Phronesis]

But your definition of "Preadaptations" belongs in the PD section....whereas others may not.

Ruueeally. You are the only person that thinks so. these types of DISCUSSIONS are fine in ALL the other science sections it has been discussed. ROFL, more science haters. Why is it the same pack who complains what science is and is not but can't even discuss science in a little detail. Then they go and complain behind other peoples back to the MODS, in groups it seems, to tell them what belongs and what does not belong in the science section. The hypocricy is hilarious, and it comes from the same group of people, day in, day out.

Excuse me, but the day you guys actually show that you are capable of understanding science (not just pretending, like this article explains), is the day the mods should take your empty complaints serious .

 

[alloytoo]

Ruueeally. You are the only person that thinks so. these types of DISCUSSIONS are fine in ALL the other science sections it has been discussed. ROFL, more science haters.

hmmmm

12/20 posts by yourself - Woo Woo - great discussion there.

One thread apparently around expanding earth theories.

This one seems to be the most active thread 11 pages +, and the one which seems to be interrogating your assertions most thoroughly.

Funny, also the one where you insult people the most.....I wonder is there a corrolation?

 

[Phronesis]

Still, your objections to this being in the science section are EMPTY. Stick to the topic at hand if you can mmkay.
Interrogating my assertions? What are you? A science cop without senior high biology? ROFL man, get a grip of life!

 

[alloytoo]

Still, your objections to this being in the science section are EMPTY. Stick to the topic at hand if you can mmkay.
Interrogating my assertions? What are you? A science cop without senior high biology? ROFL man, get a grip of life!

Please learn to read.

 

[Phronesis]

Please learn to read.

More trashtalk? Got anything of substance? Make a point, say something, be constructive!

 

[alloytoo]

More trashtalk? Got anything of substance? Make a point, say something, be constructive!

It's always constructive to encourage people to read. None the less, others got my point, even if you didn't.

Incidently it's somewhat ironic that you accuse me of "Trashtalk". Don't you have a citation for profanities?

 

[Phronesis]

alloytoo, hopefully one day you will actually have something to say that is relevant to this thread. At present... trash talk and waffling is all I hear.

Just reposting something that is actually relevant to the thread so your derailing may END. Thank you for not continuing with your trash talk and other nonsense .

Now remember Trichoplax? That little animal at the base of the eukaryotic evolutionary tree with tool kits for eyes, body plans, nerves etc. yet only has four cell types? Check out this gene:
GATA-1

This gene encodes a protein which belongs to the GATA family of transcription factors. The protein plays an important role in erythroid development by regulating the switch of fetal hemoglobin to adult hemoglobin.

A tool kit part for red blood cells... at the base of the eukaryotic tree. Fascinating don't you think?

And check out this interesting finding:
Billions Of Years Ago, Microbes Were Key In Developing Modern Nitrogen Cycle

ScienceDaily (Mar. 3, 2009) — As the world marks the 200th anniversary of Charles Darwin's birth, there is much focus on evolution in animals and plants. But new research shows that for the countless billions of tiniest creatures – microbes – large-scale evolution was completed 2.5 billion years ago.

Setting the stage so life can make use of nitrogen and unlock future evolutionary pathways. Just like the multi-cellular evolutionary pathways were unlocked when atmospheric oxygen concentrations were raised (by life itself), thereby unleashing the capabilities of the hedghog protein signaling pathway. Interestingly the ONLY example of sterolation of a protein in contemporary biology, and funny enough, oxygen is needed for cholesterol synthesis, more importantly, oxygen is needed for placing the hydroxyl group in the 3-position of cholesterol which plays a crucial role in subsequent transformations (including sterolation).

Sterolation? Yes science
Evolutionary pathways? Yes science
Evolution of multi celularity? Yes science
nitrogen cycle? Yes science

Please do try to keep up . Enoug of your anti-science waffling mmmkay.

 

[alloytoo]

alloytoo, hopefully one day you will actually have something to say that is relevant to this thread. At present... trash talk and waffling is all I hear.

Just reposting something that is actually relevant to the thread so your derailing may END. Thank you for not continuing with your trash talk and other nonsense .

Double whammy, repetition and rudeness.

Boy Prhony you're the whole package.

For those who are interested.

 

[Phronesis]

Uhm, you said something relevant to the topic? Yet again NO. Talk about repetitive rudeness .

 

[alloytoo]

Uhm, you said something relevant to the topic? Yet again NO. Talk about repetitive rudeness .

Pot this is kettle.....The irony is no doubt lost on you.

More for those that express vague interest.