Preferred Software Developer Candidate

[Pavan]

Lol, true. The engineer would probably learn enough in 6 months to start his own company and steal all your clients

 

[RajaGuy]

I have no doubt that someone who got a Maths and Stats degree could understand what is involved in software engineering. But they would lack the background that a CS and IS guy would have. Post university courses usually dont focus on the science part of computer science, and instead upon the programming. Which becomes more important later in your career.

Anyway, point is, both candidates could understand computer science, and are trained in logic and reasoning. But one already has that science knowledge whereas the other would have to learn it. Or would never understand it as well as the other guy because he was not taught it.

I agree with what you have said.

However in the light of the complex logic and reasoning aspects of maths and stats, the "science knowledge" that you refer to (Search and sorting algorithms, design patterns, etc.) can been seen as high level knowledge, and branching topics of classic math. Thus quickly absorbed by a math major. But because the math major has expressed a greater ability to logicize and reason (core qualities of a SE), their potential to become great software engineers could be seen as, on par with or greater than, a CompSci/IS major.

It is this strong logic and reasoning base that a math major possesses, that will govern their potential to become great software engineers, making the math major a more favorable candidate.

 

[Ancalagon]

I agree with what you have said.

Based on the below, you obviously disagree with me. Just be honest.

However in the light of the complex logic and reasoning aspects of maths and stats, the "science knowledge" that you refer to (Search and sorting algorithms, design patterns, etc.) can been seen as high level knowledge, and branching topics of classic math. Thus quickly absorbed by a math major. But because the math major has expressed a greater ability to logicize and reason (core qualities of a SE), their potential to become great software engineers could be seen as, on par with or greater than, a CompSci/IS major.

It is this strong logic and reasoning base that a math major possesses, that will govern their potential to become great software engineers, making the math major a more favorable candidate.

Logicize?

Please make sure that your Maths candidate has any communication he would like to send out to a client checked first!

In any case, I think you need to be a little more upfront with us. Why do you ask? Let me guess - you want to decide which one of these to study?

The short, and I would feel most correct, answer is that it depends upon the candidate. Its almost pointless to debate, since which way it will go really, and only, depends on the candidate. Which candidate would I want to interview based upon their CVs? Both! I would decide which to hire from there.

A math major hasnt demonstrated a greater ability to do anything other than study maths for longer without committing suicide. Thats it. He has not proven to have greater abilities or higher intelligence, he has simply studied a different path. Neither does studying maths polish his reasoning to a degree that he outmatches any CS major. He simply studied maths, which happens to be a good complement for CS. Thats all. Without any CS background, I'd be hesitant to put him into an architect type role.

In any case, if what you say is true, wouldnt everyone agree with you, and recommend a maths degree if you want to become a programmer? If that sounds counter intuitive to you, its because it is! One of my colleagues studied both Maths and CS, cant code for sh 1 t (EDIT: he works as a business analyst so thankfully it doesnt matter). There is a reason wannabe programmers are advised to study CS, and its not because its easy.

 

[RajaGuy]

Based on the below, you obviously disagree with me. Just be honest.

I do not disagree with your previous post because all of what you had said makes perfect sense. Of course a math major is not going the have the "science knowledge" of a CS/IS major. And of course they will never understand it, if they were never tough it. This is why I stated that this high level knowledge can be quickly absorbed by a math major because it was derived from math.

Logicize?

Please make sure that your Maths candidate has any communication he would like to send out to a client checked first!

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/logicize

In any case, I think you need to be a little more upfront with us. Why do you ask? Let me guess - you want to decide which one of these to study?

This is correct. I'm still deciding, and as you may have already realized, I'm slanted more towards a Math/Stats degree. I must apologize for something. I failed to mention that the projects that I intend on working on are those more technical in nature ... sorry.

Regardless, I stand by what I previously stated about math majors having equal or greater potential than CS majors in becoming great software engineers. It makes sense because of their greater understanding of logic and reasoning (the foundation of CS). A CS major may have equally great reasoning skills as a math major, but this is not expressed nor is it practiced as extensively in CS, as it is in a math. Thus cannot be guaranteed. Your Math/CS colleague may have been a terrible developer, but I'm going to guess that this was simply a result of a lack of interest in software development.

I am not fighting with you here . I just want to make sure that if I choose to study a Math/Stat degree, that I'm not going to have a problem finding a better job later on. And a good was to grind out a solution is through debate. I already have the experience stated in my first post. I'm just missing the qualification. And a CS/IS degree looks rather bland. Especially the IS part.

 

[Ancalagon]

I do not disagree with your previous post because all of what you had said makes perfect sense. Of course a math major is not going the have the "science knowledge" of a CS/IS major. And of course they will never understand it, if they were never tough it. This is why I stated that this high level knowledge can be quickly absorbed by a math major because it was derived from math.

No, you obviously dont! Stop pretending!

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/logicize

Sounds American anyway, I'd never use that in a sentence if I was you.

This is correct. I'm still deciding, and as you may have already realized, I'm slanted more towards a Math/Stats degree. I must apologize for something. I failed to mention that the projects that I intend on working on are those more technical in nature ... sorry.

If you need the mathematical backing, then go for it. Not many do.

Regardless, I stand by what I previously stated about math majors having equal or greater potential than CS majors in becoming great software engineers. It makes sense because of their greater understanding of logic and reasoning (the foundation of CS). A CS major may have equally great reasoning skills as a math major, but this is not expressed nor is it practiced as extensively in CS, as it is in a math. Thus cannot be guaranteed. Your Math/CS colleague may have been a terrible developer, but I'm going to guess that this was simply a result of a lack of interest in software development.

Which is absolute crap. How about you take the advice from someone who has a BSc in CS and IS, and who has worked as a software developer for the past 4.5 years, as well as everyone else who has posted in this thread. The Maths Stats part is MEANINGLESS compared to the BSc CS/IS and MCPD part. Why ask for advice if you dont want to take it.

How about you tell me the benefits of polymorphism, or the various stages in the SDLC, or the disadvantages of the traditional SDLC, or aspects of state machines? Stuff you wont get taught doing a Maths and Stats course.

Yeah he has no interest in it. My point was that studying maths did not make him a coding god. Another of my colleagues did in fact study maths and CS and is a very good developer. However, notice that he also majored in CS and in fact did honours in it I think. If you really, really want to do Maths, then do Maths and CS, not Maths and Stats. Maths and CS has some benefit. Maths and Stats has none if you want to do development.

I am not fighting with you here . I just want to make sure that if I choose to study a Math/Stat degree, that I'm not going to have a problem finding a better job later on. And a good was to grind out a solution is through debate. I already have the experience stated in my first post. I'm just missing the qualification. And a CS/IS degree looks rather bland. Especially the IS part.

No you are just completely ignoring all of our advice and going for what you wanted to do in the first place anyway. Hey I want to be a botanist, maybe I should study maths because it teaches critical thinking. Really? If you want to be a computer scientist then study computer science!

 

[RajaGuy]

...

After sifting through all of the emotional non-sense, I feel like I'm going round in circles here, explaining things over and over again. When all I'm trying to do really, is to determine my potential as a software developer with a math/stat degree, instead of a CS/IS degree (but I'm probably going to get words put in my mouth again, about how this is not what I'm really trying to do). But anyway, trying to be constructive, here goes ...

The parts that you've stated, that are not taught in a Math/Stat degree, I've said before are considered high level knowledge (polymorphism, stages in the SDLC, disadvantages of the traditional SDLC) and thus can be easily learned. No degree containing this knowledge required. This stuff can be taught quickly. State machines, and the majority of what you refer to as "science knowledge", are mathematical abstractions (state machines are covered by discrete mathematics).

As stated before, a defining quality of a software engineer is their ability to work with logic and reasoning. The same logic and reasoning found in math, only at a lower and more extensive level. The two are related (unlike botany, I can't understand why a botanist would require this level of critical thinking).

Combining the two, superior critical thinking skills not extensively taught in CS + easily learned high level knowledge that can be grasped quickly, results in a math/stat major having greater potential of becoming a master software engineer than a CS/IS major student (assuming that the SE doesn't already have this superior level of critical thinking, as stated before).

All I'm looking for is someone to refute the above statement - constructively with logical deductive reasoning please (and without putting words in my mouth) - so that I can decide which majors to register for.

Thanks.

 

[MrGray]

Qualifications and what's on the CV tend to be poor predictors of real world usefulness. Ask potential candidates to actually perform a reasonably complicated task related to the job while you watch - you'll quickly figure out who's going to be useful.

 

[Cicero]

Oh god....dude, you've made up your mind - go study maths+stats. Either way will be fine.

 

[Ancalagon]

Combining the two, superior critical thinking skills not extensively taught in CS

Which of us have studied CS Honours? You or me? Guess what, it teaches critical thinking!

+ easily learned high level knowledge that can be grasped quickly

Oh God! Every CS major is wasting their time! Since that knowledge can be learned SO EASILY, lets just go study something else. Psychology perhaps. Since its so trivial, as you say. Gee, I wonder why NO ONE else does what you want to do. Think about that.

(assuming that the SE doesn't already have this superior level of critical thinking, as stated before).

You answered your entire conundrum. It has more to do with YOU than what you study.

All I'm looking for is someone to refute the above statement - constructively with logical deductive reasoning please (and without putting words in my mouth) - so that I can decide which majors to register for.

Thanks.

Have I not done so? I'm sorry if you think its emotional nonsense, I just dont like having my time wasted by someone who has clearly decided on a course of action, and just wants people to rubber stamp his decision, saying WOW thats so amazing, I cant believe no one has ever thought of studying maths to become a computer scientist. You clearly know what you want to do, so go do it. Why waste our time? If you're clever enough, you can pull it off, but its still a waste of time. I cant wait for your first interview, when you get asked why you studied maths and stats. How old are you anyway?

The early computer scientists were all mathematicians. However, in the decades hence, a large body of information has built up around computer science. If you are so brilliant that you can convince employers you dont need a BSc in CS and IS, then go ahead. Good luck convincing them you know all you need to know about computer science (which is a lot) as well as all you need to know about related concepts, such as operating system fundamentals and networking. Oh, I hope you feel good about studying something you dont intend to use.

In fact, my biggest argument against what you want to do is - whats the point? Really, what you are trying to say is that having a maths degree adds more to your software engineering career than a computer science degree. I heartily disagree, with experience, but you choose not to believe me. But look at it from the other point of view too - your years studying maths and stats is literally going down the toilet. Whereas, in my case, not a day goes by that I dont use what I was taught at varsity.

 

[Other Pineapple Smurf]

Both have BScs and both have 3yrs experience, so both are equal for your vanilla jobs unless the jobs require specific knowledge to complete the task that the other candiate does not have. But once both these guys hit their five years, their BSc majors should never be a factor.

I've worked with a Maths major and his work was on par with CS majors.

EDIT: I'm a UNISA BSc student and originally focused too much on what major but now that I've got 5yrs development experience my prospective employers are only interest in the fact that I'm studying a BSc and not my major. BTW my major is IS.

 

[smb3]

After sifting through all of the emotional non-sense, I feel like I'm going round in circles here, explaining things over and over again. When all I'm trying to do really, is to determine my potential as a software developer with a math/stat degree, instead of a CS/IS degree (but I'm probably going to get words put in my mouth again, about how this is not what I'm really trying to do). But anyway, trying to be constructive, here goes ...

The parts that you've stated, that are not taught in a Math/Stat degree, I've said before are considered high level knowledge (polymorphism, stages in the SDLC, disadvantages of the traditional SDLC) and thus can be easily learned. No degree containing this knowledge required. This stuff can be taught quickly. State machines, and the majority of what you refer to as "science knowledge", are mathematical abstractions (state machines are covered by discrete mathematics).

As stated before, a defining quality of a software engineer is their ability to work with logic and reasoning. The same logic and reasoning found in math, only at a lower and more extensive level. The two are related (unlike botany, I can't understand why a botanist would require this level of critical thinking).

Combining the two, superior critical thinking skills not extensively taught in CS + easily learned high level knowledge that can be grasped quickly, results in a math/stat major having greater potential of becoming a master software engineer than a CS/IS major student (assuming that the SE doesn't already have this superior level of critical thinking, as stated before).

All I'm looking for is someone to refute the above statement - constructively with logical deductive reasoning please (and without putting words in my mouth) - so that I can decide which majors to register for.

Thanks.

I thought this was an employment question thread ... oh well ... i would hire the person that can demonstrate that can perform according to my business requirements ... although people tend to favor experience ... and you would want to consider the comparison of maths/stats grad (with certs) vs comp sci grad (plus maybe a year since certs dont take that long).... its a bit wishful to think you will be preferred over a comp sci grad with +2 years experience ... just saying

I think potential as a software developer would depend on your commitment and willingness into what you do (same with all careers) ... while i do agree that a maths/stats background might give you an advantage in a lower level part of computer science (after all everything is mathematical in computer science) ... you might not be strong in other things such as user interface design or artificial intelligence (psychology is better here) ... so a computer science major student will be good at anything computer science ... a maths student will only be good at certain computer science things

another thing to consider is whether a maths/stats student is better than an honors computer science student ... honors students are at a much higher level than normal graduate students ... so an honors student might end up knowing more than you ... although it depends on how much knowledge you are willing to consider as "high level" knowledge ... like sorting and searching can be considered high level but things like genetic algorithms, image processing and those things might not be considered ... so "high level" is somewhat a subjective concept ...

but all in all the deciding factor is going to be about what you make of it ... if you feel the need to do maths/stats then go for it and then be a dev afterwards, then do it ... these things arent set out in stone, history tells us otherwise ... stereotypically maths people are seen as "clever" people so maybe that alone can secure you a job if that's all you concerned about ... lol

quick question though ... with your qualification in your original post ... what is your expected salary for such a qualification?

 

[rorz0r]

The parts that you've stated, that are not taught in a Math/Stat degree, I've said before are considered high level knowledge (polymorphism, stages in the SDLC, disadvantages of the traditional SDLC) and thus can be easily learned.

Polymorphism is something high level and easily learned? Ok...

Stupid thread is stupid. Both candidates qualify for the job however both could be great devs and both could be terrible devs. There's no point in this debate about which degree better qualifies you for a theoretical job. Every job is different any way. The titles like "Senior Software Dev" encompass about a thousand completely different jobs in the real world.

 

[Cicero]

I've said before are considered high level knowledge (polymorphism, stages in the SDLC, disadvantages of the traditional SDLC) and thus can be easily learned. No degree containing this knowledge required. This stuff can be taught quickly. State machines, and the majority of what you refer to as "science knowledge", are mathematical abstractions (state machines are covered by discrete mathematics).

I'm just gonna throw out there that I found the maths and stats in my degree actually some of the easiest courses, and I did 2.5 years of engineering maths. So it was actually the maths/stats that were easily learned and the other technical crap more difficult. Just saying...

 

[Ancalagon]

Polymorphism is something high level and easily learned? Ok...

Stupid thread is stupid. Both candidates qualify for the job however both could be great devs and both could be terrible devs. There's no point in this debate about which degree better qualifies you for a theoretical job. Every job is different any way. The titles like "Senior Software Dev" encompass about a thousand completely different jobs in the real world.

Dont bother, he's already decided.

 

[Hamster]

Check the code they bring, make them write a test and see how they code. Qualifications only means so much...

 

[BobsLawnService]

Sorry, I need to emphasize something. Majority of employers will require a potential employee to have an "IT related degree/diploma" or "Degree with computer science as a major". Would candidate A been seen as inferior to candidate B? If you had to choose between the two, who would you employ?

Thanks.

You really can't tell much about someone just looking at qualifications. You need to interview them, ask questions that require them to reason things out and discover how they approach problems/challenges. It's too easy to ignore a great developer because s/he is self taught or hire a total buffoon just because s/he is good at studying.

So in answer to your question, I don't know enough about the candidates themselves to make the call.

 

[RajaGuy]

quick question though ... with your qualification in your original post ... what is your expected salary for such a qualification?

I was interested in finding out whether or not both candidates would receive an equal salary, with different (but in a way, related) qualifications. I was hoping that the Math/Stat employee would not be seen as inferior to the CS/IS, given that the Math/Stat employee could express their understanding of CS principles gained over 3 years of working experience, as stated in my original post. As for their expected salaries, if both candidates are seen as equal, then I would expect them both to earn around 25K/month.

Only up until recently have I began to consider a Math/CS degree. I intend on studying at UNISA because I work full time. So I still have some time to do a bit more research before making a final decision.

Thanks for the reply

 

[Cicero]

then I would expect them both to earn around 25K/month.

In Durbs!? Possibly over inflated view, especially for a web dev!

 

[Ancalagon]

Honestly I would do Maths/CS. Take second year stats too. If you have an interest in it, do it. If dont really have an interest in maths but want to do it for your career, probably avoid it.

 

[RajaGuy]

I'm just gonna throw out there that I found the maths and stats in my degree actually some of the easiest courses, and I did 2.5 years of engineering maths. So it was actually the maths/stats that were easily learned and the other technical crap more difficult. Just saying...

Interesting. Which degree did you study exactly so that I can look into this?