Proposed law to increase CCMA efficiency

LazyLion

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http://www.ewn.co.za/Story.aspx?Id=85884

Government on Wednesday said its proposed amendments to labour legislation will make dispute resolution at the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration (CCMA) more efficient.
But business owners have expressed concerns with the proposed changes.
On Wednesday, the Department of Labour held public hearings on the suggested legislative changes.
Hearings were held in Braamfontein, Johannesburg.
The department’s Thembinkosi Mkhaliphi said businesses would have to put up financial security in order to have CCMA decisions reviewed.
“If you have a strong case, you should be prepared to put your money where your mouth is.”
He said CCMA decisions are final, but that the Labour Court could hear reviews under exceptional circumstances.
Mkhalipi said reviews must be heard within six months.
Under the amendments, the CCMA will no longer entertain claims against unfair dismissals from high income earners given fair notice, unless they are subject to obvious unfair treatment such as racism.
More hoops to jump through for businesses who are trying to get rid of problem employees! :mad:
 

Nicodeamus

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and no one wonders why we have a high unemployment rate in this country... It can't be the Unions, It can't be the CCMA, it can't be our over-regulated labour laws, it can't be the over-taxing of the citizens.

It must be those greedy business and corporations..Those people who employ thousands yet they are still guilty.
 
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Fudzy

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More hoops to jump through for businesses who are trying to get rid of problem employees! :mad:
“If you have a strong case, you should be prepared to put your money where your mouth is.”
If the problem employee is in the wrong then you have nothing to worry about.
 

noxibox

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If the problem employee is in the wrong then you have nothing to worry about.
Pretty much. The only time really that the labour law is problematic is one on one type employment like domestic workers where it can be a major headache for an individual to deal with the requirements. I'm glad the abusive practices that were common in my earlier working days and in my parents day are no longer allowed.
 

LazyLion

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If the problem employee is in the wrong then you have nothing to worry about.
Then please explain to me why we had to give a lady that we had dismissed using the proper processes (verbal warning, written warning, disciplinary hearing and then final written warning... then finally dismissal) an extra month's wages, even though she was found guilty of gross misconduct, dereliction of duty and insubordination?
 

LazyLion

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Pretty much. The only time really that the labour law is problematic is one on one type employment like domestic workers where it can be a major headache for an individual to deal with the requirements. I'm glad the abusive practices that were common in my earlier working days and in my parents day are no longer allowed.
When you have several employees that have banded together and are resolved to make the lives of HR and management a living Hell... then they are the ones who are doing the abusing. They tie up your days with frivilous grievances, hearings, labour processes, etc. Then when you finally manage to get rid of the scumbags, they run straight to the CCMA and tie up more of your time with ridiculous claims of unfair dismissal. And the CCMA automatically takes the assumption that they were unfairly dismissed and what are you going to offer them now? It's a one sided process. I agree it should be there for protection against real unfair dismissal, but it is now being abused by employees who know they can stick it to the employer. A few years back we even had to re-hire one guy who was dismissed for stealing thousands of rands. How do you think that is fair?
 

Billy

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I handled Industrial Relations for 30 years. I have dismissed employees from cleaners to senior sales managers. I once dismissed the entire workforce of 130 employees, and on another occasion the Senior Shop Steward. I have overturned dismissals on appeal, as I often found that the evidence was suspect, or proper procedures had not been followed.

In all that time I have been to the CCMA ONCE.

I started at a new job, and inherited a CCMA case for unfair dismissal. I told the owners that the dismissal was unfair and they would lose. They insisted that it proceed. It took over two years and cost the Company R200000 in legal fees and eventually in an award. If they had settled it would have cost R50000.

Follow the correct procedures and there will not be problems.

In the case mentioned by Garyvdh , I would guess that the 1 month salary was notice pay.
 

LazyLion

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I handled Industrial Relations for 30 years. I have dismissed employees from cleaners to senior sales managers. I once dismissed the entire workforce of 130 employees, and on another occasion the Senior Shop Steward. I have overturned dismissals on appeal, as I often found that the evidence was suspect, or proper procedures had not been followed.

In all that time I have been to the CCMA ONCE.

I started at a new job, and inherited a CCMA case for unfair dismissal. I told the owners that the dismissal was unfair and they would lose. They insisted that it proceed. It took over two years and cost the Company R200000 in legal fees and eventually in an award. If they had settled it would have cost R50000.

Follow the correct procedures and there will not be problems.

In the case mentioned by Garyvdh , I would guess that the 1 month salary was notice pay.
You couldn't have been a very good labour specialist if you think that notice pay is required for Summary Dismissal. An employee is summarily dismissed when the employment contract between an employer and an employee is terminated immediately after a disciplinary enquiry, without notice or payment in lieu of notice. Summary dismissal is only allowed in exceptional circumstances of misconduct. Even though she was summarily dismissed within the month, we still paid her for the month in which she was dismissed. She went to the CCMA to get more. She originally asked for 16 weeks pay and was refused. She settled for 1 Month.
 
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Fudzy

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How long had she worked there?

From the Basic Conditions of Employment bill:

5.3 Severance pay : Section 41

An employee dismissed for operational requirements or whose contract of employment is terminated in terms of section 38 of the Insolvency Act, 1936 is entitled to one week’s severance pay for every year of service.

During consultation the parties should reach consensus on the following:
Appropriate measures to
avoid the dismissals;
minimize the number of dismissals;
change the timing of the dismissals;
to mitigate the adverse effects of the dismissals;
The method for selecting the employees to be dismissed; and
The severance pay for dismissed employees.

The employer must disclose in writing to the other consulting party all relevant information, but are not limited to:
The reasons for the proposed dismissals;
The alternatives that the employer considered before proposing the dismissals; and the reasons for rejecting each of those alternatives;
The number of employees likely to be affected and the job categories in which they are employed;
The proposed method for selecting which employees to dismiss;
The time when, or the period during which, the dismissals are likely to take affect;
The severance pay proposed;
Any assistance that the employer proposes to offer to the employees likely to be dismissed; and
The possibility of the future re-employment of the employees who are dismissed.
http://www.labourguide.co.za/workplace-discipline/dismissals-270
 

DreamKing

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anc, you can do whatever you want to do, but the investors are already packing up and ready to leave. :)

bye.

idiots!!! don't complain why you have no job. you deserve it.
 
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Fudzy

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anc, you can do whatever you want to do, but the investors are already packing up and ready to leave. :)

bye.

idiots!!! don't complain why you have no job. you deserve it.
Explain how the ANC comes into good labour practices please?
 

DreamKing

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Explain how the ANC comes into good labour practices please?
explain why I have to explain to you?

why not you and your anc buddies criminalize "employer"?
explain to me how it can be no any single employer exists in SA but employees still have their salaries?

employers have been abused by their employees so many years already, what is the "good labour practices" from the labour side?

last year, your stupid anc government suggested to relax labour laws to encourage employment, so what is anc doing now? relaxing labour laws or the opposite?

anc, please you guys don't sit on your own brains, you can't make things work. :D
 
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Fudzy

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explain why I have to explain to you?

why not you and your anc buddies criminalize "employer"?
explain to me how it can be no any single employer exists in SA but employees still have their salaries?

employers have been abused by their employees so many years already, what is the "good labour practices" from the labour side?

last year, your stupid anc government suggested to relax labour laws to encourage employment, so what is anc doing now? relaxing labour laws or the opposite?

anc, please you guys don't sit on your own brains, you can't make things work. :D
Assuming you work, if you were unfairly dismissed would you prefer there NOT be any arbitration routes?
 

RaptorSA

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If the problem employee is in the wrong then you have nothing to worry about.
Oh really? Like the guy at my previous company who rocked up drunk at his disciplinary hearing (the last of many), agreed to hand in his resignation, did so, changed his mind later... and still they couldn't get rid of him because of our wonderful labor laws?

F*** that, dude. These laws are screwing us all. I'm struggling to find good positions somewhere else because companies are s*** scared to get stuck with people they can't get rid off, should they ever want to. So now they expect you to move mountains before they'll ever take a chance on you.
 

Albereth

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Oh really? Like the guy at my previous company who rocked up drunk at his disciplinary hearing (the last of many), agreed to hand in his resignation, did so, changed his mind later... and still they couldn't get rid of him because of our wonderful labor laws?

F*** that, dude. These laws are screwing us all. I'm struggling to find good positions somewhere else because companies are s*** scared to get stuck with people they can't get rid off, should they ever want to. So now they expect you to move mountains before they'll ever take a chance on you.
I'd like to think that this is the exception rather than the rule. Problem is that there are too many exceptions.
 

DreamKing

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Assuming you work, if you were unfairly dismissed would you prefer there NOT be any arbitration routes?
I worked for more than 10 years before I started my own business.

this is no "unfairly dismissed" in this world. (I will not explain to you it is because you never will understand it.)

only stupid and lazy people think their dismissals are "unfair".
 
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