PUBLIC DEBATE : Nuclear Energy

Archer

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You neglected to mention nuclear waste that occurs when nuclear is working 100% the way it was intended. I'm not anti- nuclear, before anyone starts pointing fingers, but I do find that pro-nuclear people tend to approach the issue with rather rose-tinted glasses.
That is safely stored somewhere. Coal for instance gets "stored" in our lungs aftder its burned.

Re. wind and solar working only 50% of the time, the ultimate goal is to generate power from a combination of renewable sources, as well as a "smart grid" in order to deliver base load power 100% of the time. Also, there are certain solar systems that can provide power into/throughout the night - think molten salt.
I wouldnt put stock in something (molten salt) that currently has a 2.6% power conversion efficiency. Pure solar at least has ±20% efficiency. When that number goes above 40% for something that can be manufactured easily I'll start taking note.
 

BCO

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I do think that there is a lot of work still to be done to make the renewable souces work. If for example we were allowed to push power back into the grid, and get discounted for what you push back from eskom, I would make sense to everyone to have solar panels installed on their roofs. If the government helped to subsidise this as well, making it viable for EVERYONE to do and we wouldn't have the problems of massive wastage of land for industrial sized panels. We would very quickly have a situation where solar energy would be able to take a massive load off of our current power stations.

Of course, that might take another 100 years to happen here

Agreed, which makes nuclear the best IMMEDIATE option for getting rid of fossil fuel power generation, as long as the ultimate goal remains renewable power.
 

Archer

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It would make sense to everyone to have solar panels installed on their roofs.

NO!!! Currently the power required to manufacture solar panels is MORE than what that solar panel will ever deliver in its lifetime. Right now solar panels suck.
 

Kalvaer

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Do you have any sources on all the claims re. environmental damage of the renewables you mentioned? I'm not saying they have zero environmental impact, but it seems to me you're painting a rather bleak picture...
I did actually have the official stats. I've been searching my PC for the email with all of the sources.. though cant seem to find it now. It was mostly from an article printed in a paper, and was the response from one of the energy officials explaining to the reporter that they were talking out of their rear end, and hadn't done any research at all

NO!!! Currently the power required to manufacture solar panels is MORE than what that solar panel will ever deliver in its lifetime. Right now solar panels suck.
So more than 100 years :) but its the only way I see something like solar being viable, instead of taking up half of the karoo to generate the same amount of power
 
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BCO

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NO!!! Currently the power required to manufacture solar panels is MORE than what that solar panel will ever deliver in its lifetime. Right now solar panels suck.

Sorry dude, that's not true.

As of 2010, "total life cycle analysis" (TLCA) of solar cells has become a
well-researched topic. TLCA studies add up all the inputs into making a solar
cell, ranging from mining special minerals to the costs of installation and
maintenance. With modern solar cell designs and optimum weather, energy payback
can be well under 1 year. Over a range of solar cell technologies, weather
conditions, sizes and installation types, energy payback estimates generally
range from <1 to as many as 6 years. Since cells are expected to operate for
30 years, this means that today's solar cells are generating much more energy
than was required to manufacture them. The financial payback is a different
issue, but purely in terms of energy, solar cells definitely can produce more
energy than was required to manufacture them. TLCA analysis has been performed
around greenhouse gas (GHG) and other emissions as well.

There are tons of studies that have been published using various methods of
estimating payback periods. I'll refer to a pamphlet from the National
Renewable Energy Laboratory that is a little old (2004), but gives a good
general overview:

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35489.pdf

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/eng99/eng99553.htm
 

Kalvaer

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Hence why I said I'm not anti-nuclear. It's definitely better than fossil fuel power sources, but I'm not convinced that, environmentally speaking at least, nuclear is superior to renewables.
Here is information from the tail end of the article I was talking about.. The entire thing is really long.. and really funny, but anyway.

In the fifth column, you ask why we don't turn to renewables 'when we have such abundant sun, wind and hydro resources? Answers: sun because it's very expensive and the technology will take many decades to work up to the massive scale required; wind because it's expensive and intermittent (see below) and, unlike Denmark, we have no powerful neighbours to support us when the wind drops; hydro because we have little locally and Inga, on which work has now sadly stopped, is 3000km away over politically unstable territory. I have no doubt that you believe all these things are feasible and must therefore be astonished that Eskom does not rush out and implement them. You are therefore obliged to attribute this failure to stupidity on the part of Eskom and malign influence on the part of the mining and, presumably, nuclear industries. Maybe it's not. Just maybe, the decisions are rational - if pedestrian.

You then say that we could generate base-load power from CSP and 'thermal batteries'. I can only imagine that a thermal battery is a tank full of molten salt. According to the Eskom guru on the subject, you need 50 000 tons of molten sodium/potassium nitrate working between 300 and 600 deg C for each 100 MWe tower. A technology in its infancy. I don't know of one working anywhere. Again, it is surely misleading not to mention the considerable cost involved. And has anyone in the environmental camp looked at the environmental and energy costs of procuring all the structural and other materials needed? It would, for example, need 900 000 tons of molten salt to replace Koeberg.

Just as a matter of interest, it would need a single mirror 24 km in diameter to generate the 240 000 GWh/year of electricity we use. Or, since I know you prefer the concept of distributed generation operated by the local population, rather more than a thousand 100 MWe towers, each with its 50 000 tons of molten salt, located in the sunnier parts of the country.

Finally, as you will recall, I keep harping on about the need to master the arithmetic of energy generation.

Take wind. Again, according to the same Eskom guru, from a wind farm, you get full power for about 5% of the time, nothing for about 35% when the wind is either too strong of too gentle, and a variable, intermediate power level for about 60%. Overall, in this country, you do well to achieve 20%. I understand that Klipheuwel almost gets there.

A 100 MWe wind farm will therefore give you on average 20MW, or 20 x 8760 MWh per year = 20 x 8,760 GWh/y = 175,2 GWh/y.

Now, as a nation we use 240 000 GWh/y. We would therefore need 240 000 / 175,2 x 100 MW of wind power, i.e. 136 986 MW, i.e. about 68 500 x 2MW windmills.

Now, you must place these windmills about five diameters apart, say 400m. So you would need a line of windmills 27 000 km long. Assuming that we have a 'smoothed-out' coastline 4000km long, you would need at least six lines of 2 MW windmills (twice as big as those at
Klipheuwel) stretching from Namibia to Mozambique. Why do wind enthusiasts not tell us things like that?

Of course, if we could miraculously call those lines of windmills into existence, we would have far too much energy on one day, far too little the next. We would therefore also have to call into existence perhaps 20 000 MW of coal or nuclear power to cover for bad wind days. And if we have to build those more dependable stations anyway, why build the windmills in the first place? South Africa has no external back-up or significant pumped storage. You have to accept, therefore, that wind can play only a minor (and expensive) part in our planning. I'm not convinced that we can justify any at all, other than for R&D.

Again, Koeberg generates about 1800 x 8760 x 0,9 MWh/y = 14, 2 million MWh/y = 14 200 GWh/y. So we would need 14 200/175,2 x 100 MW of windmills to replace it = 8105 MW of windmills. If we use big 5 MW off-shore machines as high as the Statue of Liberty, we would need only 1620.

Now then, the spacing required would be about 1km in the SE-NW direction and 500m across wind, i.e. two windmills per km2. We would therefore need about 810 km2, i.e. an area of ocean some 28 km square. This is about the area of False Bay totally covered with the largest windmills.
How's that for environmental impact? Is that really preferable to Koeberg? Think also of the building and decommissioning perhaps twenty years later. And then the rebuilding. Good-bye whales!

We all clearly have inbuilt filters. We internalise only 'facts' that resonate with what we already believe. And we believe only what our personalities incline us to believe. We accept uncritically 'facts', however bizarre, that suit our cause and reiterate, even embellish, those facts as time goes by.

The simple facts are that we must economise. Our lifestyles will have to contract. Electricity and oil costs will see to that. For the good of the planet we must develop renewables to the fullest extent that technical and, particularly, economic factors allow. For the same reason we must go nuclear as fast as the sadly depleted global nuclear industry can manage. The energy in the nucleus is surely as much a gift of God as is the sun. What folly, in the grim on-coming energy situation, not to develop it! Our children will not thank us if we burn up all their fossil reserves, despoil their environment and fail to bequeath to them viable generation technologies, renewable and otherwise.
 
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BCO

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Just did some rough calcs on the amount of land required to run the whole of SA on wind power (although bear in mind that wind farms don't adversely affect many farming practices). Here goes:

The Burton Wold Wind Farm has a nameplate capacity of 20MW. It takes up 3 hectares (30 000m2 of land). It generated 43,416MWh of electricity in 2008, giving it a capacity factor of 25%. In other words, its actual power output is 25% of its nameplate capacity.

In 2007, South Africa consumed 241,400,000 MWh of electricity. 241,400,000 /43,416 = 5560. So we'd need 5560 Burton Wold Wind Farms to reliably power SA. This would take up 16,680 hectares or 167 km2.

The Great Karoo is 400,000km2.

Obviously this makes a number of assumptions around wind speeds etc (although wind farms typically have capacity factors of 20%-40% so the one in our example is actually on the lower end of the spectrum), but it's interesting nonetheless. Anyone care to double check my calcs?
 
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BCO

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KK, gonna make another post here, as I just messed around a bit on Google Earth looking at Burton Wold Wind Farm, and to me it looks like it's more like 1.25km2 rather than 3 hectares (the 3 hectare figure is from Wikipedia) which alters things a lot.

So we need 5560 Burton Wold Wind Farms to power SA, at 1.25km2 each = 6950km2. Much more plausible number, but still only a fraction of the Great Karoo.
 

Kalvaer

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They look right, and are very similar actually the figures given by John in the quoted post I put above.

So ok.. its not "most" of the Great Karoo. But its still a MASSIVE amount of land used up. People are moaning already about the land required for the SKA... can you imagine what will happen for something that much bigger?
 

Rosaudio

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Made this in like 2 seconds

70be4d9b48a0.gif
 

Lounger

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No it doesnt, but you dont need large amounts of it like you do coal. Take your loaf and stick it up your...

(Dont be obscene)
Uranium mining is very volume-intensive, which means you have to extract huge amounts of soil in open mines to get a small amount of mineral - which is a very environmentally unfriendly way to mine.
Workers are exposed to radiation, as well as dust.
 

Kalvaer

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You're exposed to Radiation eating banana's and dust/smog all over JHB central. You seem to be forgetting the point that the people who workin Uranium mines are well within the safe limits. They are all monitored and may not receive more than 50 mSv's per year. One needs to sustain 100 mSV's per year before any increased risk of cancer is observed. Can you say the same with the damage to the coal miners lungs?

The point is that the amount of coal required is substantially more than what is required for Uranium.

SA has about 500 000 tons assured, 200 000 tons probable and much more undiscovered. A 1000 MWe Generation II nuke like those at Koeberg needs about 10 000 tons over fifty years. How many tons of coal do you require to run a coal power plant for the same length of time.

If you stay within 80 km of a nuclear power plant, you receive ~0.09µSv's extra a year. Staying 80 km from coal power plant is an additional ~0.3µSv's.. But sure.. Coal is safer.....
 

chris2.0

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My 2c - we need to move away from non-renewable to renewable sources of energy and power generation, before we do more damage to the environment than can be repaired before we reach tipping-point...

But before then even - we need to do the same as a country (and world) that a home-owner does when he wants to go off-grid. Identify all the energy wasting appliances and equipment. Replace with more energy efficient and/or alternatively powered ones/ Like replace your 10 year old fridge with a new one with better energy rating. Throw out the stove and oven and go gas. Insulate against heat loss/gain. Install a solar geyser if you can. Best way to do it is when you have to replace any of these in any case for a reason - then pay the premium to save energy. Everybody has CFL's already, but look out for LED globes when the prices start going down. Replace where practical desktop PC's with laptops, also only when replacing in any case. The aim is to not go out and spend $$$, only pay a premium over the amount you would have spent in any case.

Multiply by a few million for SA & a few billion for the world, and then see how much generation capacity is actually needed for the future.

Only then do we know how much thermal/nuke/solar/wind and hydro power expansion is needed...

I worked for 2 years in a Nuke power R&D company (can't call them a construction company for obvious reasons...) and I was pro-nuke before, now I'm more ambivalent - nuke power is cleaner than coal, but coal ash, although giving respiratory problems, does not change your DNA... Or your great-grand children's either... Cause nuclear material half-life is a problem for days/weeks/months/years/decades/centuries...

The same can't be said of the others, no matter how you look at it...
 

porchrat

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My 2c - we need to move away from non-renewable to renewable sources of energy and power generation, before we do more damage to the environment than can be repaired before we reach tipping-point...

But before then even - we need to do the same as a country (and world) that a home-owner does when he wants to go off-grid. Identify all the energy wasting appliances and equipment. Replace with more energy efficient and/or alternatively powered ones/ Like replace your 10 year old fridge with a new one with better energy rating. Throw out the stove and oven and go gas. Insulate against heat loss/gain. Install a solar geyser if you can. Best way to do it is when you have to replace any of these in any case for a reason - then pay the premium to save energy. Everybody has CFL's already, but look out for LED globes when the prices start going down. Replace where practical desktop PC's with laptops, also only when replacing in any case. The aim is to not go out and spend $$$, only pay a premium over the amount you would have spent in any case.

Multiply by a few million for SA & a few billion for the world, and then see how much generation capacity is actually needed for the future.

Only then do we know how much thermal/nuke/solar/wind and hydro power expansion is needed...

I worked for 2 years in a Nuke power R&D company (can't call them a construction company for obvious reasons...) and I was pro-nuke before, now I'm more ambivalent - nuke power is cleaner than coal, but coal ash, although giving respiratory problems, does not change your DNA... Or your great-grand children's either... Cause nuclear material half-life is a problem for days/weeks/months/years/decades/centuries...

The same can't be said of the others, no matter how you look at it...

Wait so we have to switch to renewable energy sources but you want everyone to switch their stoves to gas? :confused:
 

Archer

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That's not quite correct. They can deliver back as much as 93%.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-to-use-solar-energy-at-night

Thats the recovery efficiency from the salt once its already hotif I'm not mistaken, not the total efficiency of sun -> panels -> salt which is what the 2.6% is referring to (figure taken from a new plant being built in Spain).

And a PS - something is wrong or right, there is no 'quite' :p

The gross conversion efficiencies (taking into account that the solar dishes or troughs occupy only a fraction of the total area of the power plant) are determined by net generating capacity over the solar energy that falls on the total area of the solar plant. The 500-megawatt (MW) SCE/SES plant would extract about 2.75% of the radiation (1 kW/m²; see Solar power for a discussion) that falls on its 4,500 acres (18.2 km²).[68] For the 50 MW AndaSol Power Plant[69] that is being built in Spain (total area of 1,300×1,500 m = 1.95 km²) gross conversion efficiency comes out at 2.6%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_thermal_energy
 
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Jab

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Thats the recovery efficiency from the salt if I'm not mistaken, not the efficiency of sun -> panels -> salt which is what the 2.6% is referring to (figure taken from a new plant being built in France).

And a PS - something is wrong or right, there is no 'quite' :p

Thanks mister pedant. A Spanish demonstration project did in fact get 18% mean gross efficiency (Link) Of course when the fuel source is free that efficiency is a less important factor than kwh price, as a way of evaluating a project.
 

Archer

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Thanks mister pedant.
No problem :p :D

A Spanish demonstration project did in fact get 18% mean gross efficiency (Link) Of course when the fuel source is free that efficiency is a less important factor than kwh price, as a way of evaluating a project.
Efficiency does come into play imo because of the cost and amount of land that needs to be invested.
 

w1z4rd

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Hydro is vulnerable to droughts, and damming rivers does have environmental consequences.

Geothermal power is great, but it is (for now) limited to active geo-thermal areas, is subject to the water table being adequate and not being over exploited.

I was watching a documentary on geo-thermal power, apparently the peeps in Iceland are doing that stuff, and they have massive issues with the calcification of the piping. They still do not have an ideal resolution for that.
 
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