Refusing Infinitecall Service Is Illegal

[Debbie]

I know, starting two threads in one night is probably not the way to endear myself to this community. But again, this is very important.

IT IS ILLEGAL FOR TELKOM TO REFUSE ANYONE THE INFINTECALL SERVICE. Tibbi-dude, I know you like statute references, so for your benefit I refer you to the COMPETITION ACT. The Competition Act is very clear about this. If Telkom refuses Infinitecall to anyone, it violates the discrimination clause of the Competition Act.

Just to pacify potential objectors and would-be trolls:
1) You can find the Competition Act on the Competition Commission’s website: www.compcom.<something>. Since I cannot afford being online for long periods of time, I am writing this post whilst offline atm. Hence the reason why I cannot check the exact address of the Competition Commission.
2) A few weeks ago, and MaD will confirm this with you, I called Telkom to “test” them on this issue. I asked them if my ‘friend’ could get Infinitecall on her account. The consultant told me that yes, she could. I then mentioned that I heard Telkom was not allowing new sign ups for the Infinitecall service. The Telkom consultant herself told me that this would be illegal because it is discrimination. I already knew this, and I was just testing Telkom for university research purposes.
3) Telkom quite legally limits Infinitecall to certain conditions. For example, business line subscribers are not entitled to Infinitecall. Infinitecall is also not allowed with Surfmore packages. There may be other packages that Telkom does not allow Infinitecall with.

Notwithstanding the above conditions, Telkom may NOT refuse Infinitecall to any customer, new or existing or new Infinitecall-subscriber wannabe.

Perhaps someone with a cellphone that records calls can phone Telkom, ask to signup for Infinitecall, and in this way we can get a recording of Telkom flouting the law?

Debbie2
(I WILL NOT BE SILENCED, TELKOM)

 

[bb_matt]

Perhaps someone with a cellphone that records calls can phone Telkom, ask to signup for Infinitecall, and in this way we can get a recording of Telkom flouting the law?

Debbie2
(I WILL NOT BE SILENCED, TELKOM)

Isn't that entrapment ?

 

[antowan]

Only if you plan to arrest the person giving the information. In this case it is only a matter of verification and I cannot for the life of me think of any legal issues. You must however tell the Telkom employee that the call is being recorded. If the person says no I would think you better not tape it.

Cheers
Antowan

 

[Darth Garth]

IT IS ILLEGAL FOR TELKOM TO REFUSE ANYONE THE INFINTECALL SERVICE.

Oh really .... you drive a Renault Clio don't you ???.

Now suppose Renault decides tomorrow that the Clio sucks and they withdraw them from sale all over the world but yet will still supports the existing owners with spare parts and services for the next 30 years (they must due to some EU consumer protection law afaik).

Yep their reputation will suffer and your resale value of your Clio will be worse than that of Dacia but Renault can do that as they have a right to terminate any product they feel like but must support the owners of the older and existing models "within reason" as covered by the various consumer protection laws governing their conduct.

Well the same analogy applies to Telkom and infinitycall.

Unless you can prove that they MUST provide such a service by law or license condition then you have NO legal recourse.

 

[Darth Garth]

Isn't that entrapment ?

Afaik we have a privacy clause in our constitution and you cannot record somebody without their permission unless a warrant of some sorts has been issued by the relevant judicial authority.

 

[antowan]

lol

Tell the Telkom employee that your call might be recorded for quality assurance reasons. They do it with us, why not us with them?

 

[DFantom]

If the person says no I would think you better not tape it.

Kinda double standards, since they record you.

Well the same analogy applies to Telkom and infinitycall.

WRONG. The difference is that Telkom is still offering the package. Just being selective about the people who get it. It would be like Renault selling the Clio to everyone except people that own dogs (bad example I know, I am never good with examples). It's discrimation, and thus illegal. If Telkom doesn't want to offer the product, pull it completely.

Afaik we have a privacy clause in our constitution and you cannot record somebody without their permission unless a warrant of some sorts has been issued by the relevant judicial authority.

They need to be informed that the call is being recorded though. As it is a phone call they have the option to hang up (which implies non-permission then) if they don't want to be recorded or stay on the line (which implies giving permission) if they don't mind.

 

[Darth Garth]

WRONG. The difference is that Telkom is still offering the package. Just being selective about the people who get it.

I disagree here ... they still offer it to customers who signed up for it before it was canned for new lines right ???.

Just like Renault still is servicing their older models who are no longer available to new customers.

 

[MaD]

tibby.dude do you work for Telkom?

 

[Arzy]

Actually what their doing is refusing to sell it to you unless you put up one major fight with them or get lucky in some way.

My girlfriend moved out into her own flat, at her home she always had infinitecall. When she moved into her flat, Telkom installed a new line and asked if she wanted any additional services. She said she would like infitecall, the techy told her that the service was no longer being offered on new lines but if she were to call x person at x number she could still have it added at the normal cost. She called and infitecall was immediately activated.

Me, being the way I am, I tried to argue with her and say that it is impossible that she has it on her line as the service isn't offered anymore to new clients. To prove it I called Telkom and tried to order it, sure as hell I was told I couldn't get it. To prove her point she called her number again and the people there were willing to do it. I then called the normal Telkom number again and went on like a maniac for about 15 minutes about how some people can get it and I can't whereafter I think the sales person just gave up on me and asked which line I would like it activated on.

How is this a fair service?

 

[Darth Garth]

tibby.dude do you work for Telkom?

Heavens no ... although the ADSL staff rates would have been nice .

 

[Debbie]

Listen, I am telling you that refusing Infinitecall is illegal.

If you choose not to believe me, then it's at the expense of everyone you could have advised better.

 

[Darth Garth]

Listen, I am telling you that refusing Infinitecall is illegal.

Your opinion counts for nothing in a court ... the burden of proof is on you and nothing so far has shown me this.

 

[Debbie]

It seems that a certain troll around here gets very upset if he does not get a reaction from people (see the 'illegal infinitecall d/c' thread to see what I am talking about).

So lets not give a reaction to those who contribute nothing useful.

 

[DFantom]

I disagree here ... they still offer it to customers who signed up for it before it was canned for new lines right ???.

Just like Renault still is servicing their older models who are no longer available to new customers.

Look you are not listerning (reading). Take a smoke, calm down and realise that no one is argueing with you, just trying to clear up the confusion (you say A and we are talking about B).
If they cancel the service (i.e. no new signups) and keep offering it to exisiting users that is fine (this is what your example is about). BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

What they are doing is still offering the service on a selective basis and that it is illegal. Your example is wrong and not related to what we are talking about.

 

[DFantom]

Heavens no ... although the ADSL staff rates would have been nice .

ADSL staff rates = steal users username and password and use it at home?

 

[len]

pretty much it i'd say... the tek support guys have access to all that information right from giving them your phone number!!!

 

[Darth Garth]

It seems that a certain troll around here gets very upset if he does not get a reaction from people (see the 'illegal infinitecall d/c' thread to see what I am talking about).

So lets not give a reaction to those who contribute nothing useful.

My dear political science major ... have you learnt nothing with that fancy degree of yours ???.

You simply can't label me as a troll because my opinion is different from yours.

It only shows me how weak your argument are if you can't handle ONE criticism.

The old totalitarian regime and their stupid inept ways are long gone and now we are in a new setup where differing opinions must be accommodated as we strive to reach some sort of consensus.

 

[antowan]

We are all entitled to our views here and differing ideas are indeed welcome. It is easy to see that tibby and Debbie don't see eye to eye. Lets move on. Personal insults are not welcome. As they say, play the ball and not the man.

Stay on track here please.

 

[ScrnScrm]

to clear up some legal issues :

a. Voice recordings are not illegal provided the other party has given you permission to record the conversation. All you need is an acknowledgement from the other party that they understand that they are being recorded and that you have their permission.
b. Entrapment is an American legal concept - intepretation of it is totally different in the South African legal context.
c. You may have a voice recording of what someone has said, but that doesnt mean that you can automatically submit it as evidence in legal proceedings. You would need to argue its validity before a judge, and would be treading on hallowed ground...
d. The Telkom web site states that they reserve the right to withdraw services with prior notice at any time. As long a due diligence is granted for existing subscribers and the service is no longer actively advertised, they are fully within their rights to do this. This applies to ANYONE doing business in South Africa. As far as I can see, they are no longer advertising/promoting the service, and are actively trying to prevent new subscriptions. They have notified their intent to existing subscribers, and will not be withdrawing this service to them immediately.

Like i said before Debbie - go after them where you can with facts. Actual cases where they are breaking the law or hindering competition. A good starting point would be the SAIX/IS peering link debacle where it is apparent that Telkom are blocking competition.

Later -