Robot law: what happens if intelligent machines commit crimes?

Robot law: what happens if intelligent machines commit crimes?

The fear of powerful artificial intelligence and technology is a popular theme, as seen in films such as Ex Machina, Chappie, and the Terminator series.

Movies are also made about zombie outbreaks and North Koreans taking over the White House and starting WW3 yet we don't worry about these things.

If an artificial intelligence commits a crime, the problem lies with the manufacturer - after all the intelligence is artificial and not real. The machine was so programmed that under certain circumstances it would choose to kill, but a human being is self programmed and so is self liable.
 
Movies are also made about zombie outbreaks and North Koreans taking over the White House and starting WW3 yet we don't worry about these things.

If an artificial intelligence commits a crime, the problem lies with the manufacturer - after all the intelligence is artificial and not real. The machine was so programmed that under certain circumstances it would choose to kill, but a human being is self programmed and so is self liable.

True artificial intelligence is not programmed... So there goes manufacturer liability
 
True artificial intelligence is not programmed... So there goes manufacturer liability

Of course it's programmed. Only a true intelligence is not programmed.

You just have to go one or two or three up the chain. Who did not program a safeguard --- well that person or company is guilty.

When evolution produces a robot - there will be no liability.

Let's put it another way, if a true AI can be compelled to perform a job, it can be compelled to perform a job in such a way that it cannot under any situation cause harm. And if that's not possible, true AI - for argument's sake say you are correct and I dispute this - should not be manufactured - and if it is knowing that it could potentially turn on a user, the liability is with the maker, or the user can accept the liability - depending on law, but some (human) person can be made liable.
 
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Of course it's programmed. Only a true intelligence is not programmed.

You just have to go one or two or three up the chain. Who did not program a safeguard --- well that person or company is guilty.

When evolution produces a robot - there will be no liability.

If you noticed I said "True artificial intelligence".

Oh wait are you the dude who believes there never will be true AI because only Jeebers can create that?
 
If you noticed I said "True artificial intelligence".

Oh wait are you the dude who believes there never will be true AI because only Jeebers can create that?

Actually we have something close to true AI- animals such as cats and dogs and lions. When those kill a person in the wild, nobody else is made responsible. If a person accepts responsibility for an animal and that animal kills someone then the liability is with the person, depending on the circumstances. But we never blame the animal per se and try animals in courts of law.

One does not have to be theistic to think "true" AI is not possible. In fact some of its opponents are atheists. ;)
 
Actually we have something close to true AI- animals such as cats and dogs and lions. When those kill a person in the wild, nobody else is made responsible. If a person accepts responsibility for an animal and that animal kills someone then the liability is with the person, depending on the circumstances. But we never blame the animal per se and try animals in courts of law.

One does not have to be theistic to think "true" AI is not possible. In fact some of its opponents are atheists. ;)

So do we blame the animal or not? Because in everything I've read the animal is blamed not the owner, pitbulls put down after biting child and just today a leopard was shot because it bit a ranger. If the machine is truly intelligent then it should be punished, not it's owner/maker/programmer.

Well I doubt we'll see true AI in our lifetime but nothing is impossible...
 
So do we blame the animal or not? Because in everything I've read the animal is blamed not the owner, pitbulls put down after biting child and just today a leopard was shot because it bit a ranger. If the machine is truly intelligent then it should be punished, not it's owner/maker/programmer.

The machine is still a machine. So if it's made into a person it should also have rights, such as time to relax and have hobbies, maybe have sex and so on.

Yes animals are not punished but they were not programmed by us. Any machine we have is and will be programmed, either directly or indirectly by us. But as said if you can compel a machine to do something you can also compel it to not do something and if someone fails to compel for it to prevent harm in a given situation - they are liable. Even if they programmed the initial AI programmer and now there have been 10 generations.

Well I doubt we'll see true AI in our lifetime but nothing is impossible...

How do you know it's possible? Ok act of faith, ok.
 
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The machine is still a machine. So if it's made by a person it should also have rights, such as time to relax and have hobbies, maybe have sex and so on.

Yes animals are not punished but they were not programmed by us. Any machine we have is and will be programmed, either directly or indirectly by us. But as said if you can compel a machine to do something you can also compel it to not do something and if someone fails to compel for it to prevent harm in a given situation - they are liable. Even if they programmed the initial AI programmer and now there have been 10 generations.



How do you know it's possible? Ok act of faith, ok.

True AI(if it ever happens) will have rights. Either granted or taken.

But the animals are punished? I just gave you 2 examples(of many).

True AI is NOT programmed, by it's definition... You won't be able to "compel" it to do anything.

So how far back does one go in blaming, back to Turing?

I don't know if it's possible, just incredibly narrow minded to say it's impossible.
 
True artificial intelligence is not programmed... So there goes manufacturer liability

I agree. But there is no true artificial intelligence yet.

If .... then

elsif .... then

else...

end if

is not AI :)

I doubt there will be in our lifetime. Until the AI in any "robot" becomes truly "self aware", liability will still be the manufacturer.
 
I agree. But there is no true artificial intelligence yet.

If .... then

elsif .... then

else...

end if

is not AI :)

I doubt there will be in our lifetime. Until the AI in any "robot" becomes truly "self aware", liability will still be the manufacturer.

Why do you say it's not an AI? If it's sufficiently complex you won't be able to tell it's not AI.

And besides suppose we have the magic of "True AI"(TM)(C). Adding something like "Don't kill humans, ever." as a moral imperative which overrides all else and can directly cut off motor / effector function can still allow you to control the AI and so absence of such safety devices would make the manufacturer still liable.
 
I doubt there will be in our lifetime. Until the AI in any "robot" becomes truly "self aware", liability will still be the manufacturer.

No it wouldn't. A truly self aware robot with human or better intellect would then be responsible for it's own actions. To "compel" them to do anything would be akin to slavery, after all they'd have their own thoughts, desires, dreams, likes, dislikes, opinions etc just like people do. The only difference would be the material that their bodies are made of. So unless "robot slavery" is legal you'd hold the robots responsible and punish them, not the manufacturer.
 
True AI(if it ever happens) will have rights. Either granted or taken.

Just because one can declare something does not make it true. One would have to show the machine really is sentient and that's not possible since any complex computing system can mimic sentience and we won't be able to judge it. Also why should a sentient creature be granted special rights? And how many rights to grant it?

How would it take rights? If it takes "rights" then because the machine has such programming it spells nothing for its AI status. Also if it takes rights i.e. dominates us, of course it may excuse itself from responsibility for killing people. It spells nothing about any real moral status it gained after all we agree that might does not make right, right? :)

But the animals are punished? I just gave you 2 examples(of many).

Animals are not punished and are true AI in the most relevant sense, or equivalents of other forms of intelligence of non human type. They're the closest thing we have to AI. And we punish people. So instead of bullsh-t speculation about robots we can look at how people interact with animals and we don't punish a dolphin which pushes someone overboard and causes them to drown (and that's some complex AI there aleady) or a gorilla which kills someone who fell into its cage.

True AI is NOT programmed, by it's definition... You won't be able to "compel" it to do anything.

Of course you can add programming on top of what the machine executes. You can have circuits which can affect motor function of the machine so for example if a human is recognised as being hurt by a computer which is not-AI the machine is switched off or prevented fron acting, or all its motor inputs go through a computer which determines if the direct action will harm a person or not, and so on.... that is assuming "True AI" is possible. However True AI will still be man made and so can be man controlled to some extent. And if it can't then the people who allow it will be held responsible for any problems it causes. There is no necessity for such AI to continue to exist if it is potentially harmful. So there are many ways people can be held liable. You need to think in a bit of a wider context here.

So how far back does one go in blaming, back to Turing?
No. To the company and people who authorised the use of such a machine. Why Turing? Why not someone earlier? Why not the early mathematicians?

I don't know if it's possible, just incredibly narrow minded to say it's impossible.

It's not narrow minded. There is no evidence that it's possible. Also there is no way to tell if it's really intelligent or mimicking intelligence. Chinese Room problem shows you that people can't judge sentience of something based on interaction with it. So that's evidence against us even knowing it's really, truly intelligent. As we don't even materialistically can account for consciousness we can't know if it's possible for it to truly exist in a non-biological form derived via non-natural means. It may be that we can create exact copies which are philosophical zombies.

So it's maybe possible but to say narrow minded is saying one is narrow minded for being a realist.

True AI even if such a thing can exist won't just pop into existence, well unless we are incredibly lucky with random quantum events, and that is supposedly possible too. It will be developed gradually and won't be able to function as some Terminator robot from Day 1. Those who say such things are safe and release such robots into the wild, will be held responsible for example.
 
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No it wouldn't. A truly self aware robot with human or better intellect would then be responsible for it's own actions. To "compel" them to do anything would be akin to slavery, after all they'd have their own thoughts, desires, dreams, likes, dislikes, opinions etc just like people do. The only difference would be the material that their bodies are made of. So unless "robot slavery" is legal you'd hold the robots responsible and punish them, not the manufacturer.

It is akin to slavery to compel you not to murder someone else because of penalties? Or to pay taxes to avoid being fined? Or to force you to gown up when visiting an ICU or even to hold onto the guys who come to Akiba48 handshaking events to protect the girls? Or what about the overwhelming power of SWAT teams who are armed to the teeth as a means of deterrence? Or chemical castration for predatory pedophiles or other chemical means to control manic/psychotic people = who are just as sentient as you and me? Would you say giving haloperidol and tegretol/lithium to a schizophrenic or a bipolar person is a form of slavery?

And you know that some people like those who are psychopaths - and we have no way of knowing your true AI is not going to be that - are banned from say owning weapons and sometimes even kept under lock down?

Slavery works only against people. True AI is not a human being. There is no reason to not allow them to remain slaves, after all that was the purpose for their creation. However I don't think true AI is possible, that is there is no compelling evidence for it.

Only true AI I would accept would be some form of sentient chimpanzee i.e. derived from natural means.

I think slavery is also something which compels someone to do something, but a compulsion AGAINST something especially a harmful action would not amount to slavery. One is after all not free to murder other people, so that argument is moot. We just don't know how to affect people to prevent them from acting on murderous compulsions.
 
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It is akin to slavery to compel you not to murder someone else because of penalties? Or to pay taxes to avoid being fined? Or to force you to gown up when visiting an ICU or even to hold onto the guys who come to Akiba48 handshaking events to protect the girls?

And you know that some people like those who are psychopaths - and we have no way of knowing your true AI is not going to be that - are banned from say owning weapons and sometimes even kept under lock down?

Slavery works only against people. True AI is not a human being. There is no reason to not allow them to remain slaves, after all that was the purpose for their creation. However I don't think true AI is possible, that is there is no compelling evidence for it.

Only true AI I would accept would be some form of sentient chimpanzee i.e. derived from natural means.

I think slavery is also something which compels someone to do something, but a compulsion AGAINST something especially a harmful action would not amount to slavery. One is after all not free to murder other people, so that argument is moot. We just don't know how to affect people to prevent them from acting on murderous compulsions.

I'm not gonna get into yet another 10 page argument with you. Those are laws. There is nothing physically stopping you from going outside right now and knifing the first person you see. There is nothing physically stopping you from not paying tax, not gowning up or committing any other crime. There are consequences sure but you could do all this stuff if you wanted to. If I were to force you into an exo-suit and make you/prevent you from doing stuff you would complain, and rightly so.

I'm talking about true AI robots possessing human-like intelligence that we could communicate with. We can't communicate with animals and they don't function like humans mentally, or maybe they do, but we can't communicate to the extent we can with other people so they are a poor comparison. I'm talking about AI with 100% human-like behaviour, like if you suddenly found out tomorrow that you were actually a robot manufactured in a lab years ago behaviour. As in the only difference between you and a person would be that your body was manufactured.

You would have to hold them to human laws or it is slavery. Maybe they would be psychopathic beings, maybe not. There is risk, but if we cant accept them as fellow intelligent, sapient beings with just as much value as us then maybe we shouldn't create them.
 
I'm not gonna get into yet another 10 page argument with you. Those are laws. There is nothing physically stopping you from going outside right now and knifing the first person you see. There is nothing physically stopping you from not paying tax, not gowning up or committing any other crime. There are consequences sure but you could do all this stuff if you wanted to. If I were to force you into an exo-suit and make you/prevent you from doing stuff you would complain, and rightly so.

Well there are other examples. There are safety precautions in my home which prevent me from shocking myself easily. There are new systems in cars which will prevent me from steering into a wall on purpose or by accident. And as said, people such as those who are deemed to pose a harm to others, are either kept locked down or given chemical agents which actually prevent them from doing bad things to others. We also limit the ability of people to do certain things. For example in Japan carrying knifes of a certain nature is banned, so already your freedom is curtailed. In the UK handguns are banned to some extent after the Dunblane murders. In France face coverings are banned. And it makes little sense to say you can still wear a face covering in France but just have to face consequences because slaves could also run away most of the time from their masters, but also had to face consequences after wards. Unless you're telling me that that's not slavery, then many people from the American South will tell you to get real.

We could also speak of health regulations such as not being able to smoke in public spaces, and speed limits and so on. And safety precautions on say trains and planes exist. We have doors which cannot be opened in flight and we have cockpit doors which can also be blocked from the insight as we recently found which caused a successful suicide/murder. That pilot with hindsight would have been prevented by the airline from flying and we may see stringent psych testing of pilots which also can ban them from flying and we can also call it a form of modified slavery. So doing this for robots would not be slavery per se, even if they are sentient. I think you're mixing concepts and just because they sound similar in effect does not mean they are the same.

I'm talking about true AI robots possessing human-like intelligence that we could communicate with. We can't communicate with animals and they don't function like humans mentally, or maybe they do, but we can't communicate to the extent we can with other people so they are a poor comparison. I'm talking about AI with 100% human like behaviour, like if you suddenly found out tomorrow that you were actually a robot manufactured in a lab years ago behaviour. As in the only difference between you and a person would be that your body was manufactured.

Except that even when communicating with a machine one cannot tell if the machine is truly sentient or mimicking it. It's a known issue in philosophy. There is no way to tell and so to confirm. You have to go on faith and a sufficiently complex system will fool people.

You would have to hold them to human laws or it is slavery. Maybe they would be psychopathic beings, maybe not. There is risk, but if we cant accept them as fellow intelligent, sapient beings with just as much value as us then maybe we shouldn't create them.

There is no moral imperative to accept them as sapient, intelligent beings or grant them special rights. They are not human so granting them human rights is not appropriate. It's you who has to show why they should have such rights given that we have no way to know if they are really sentient, and two they deserve such rights even if they so are. And three, even if we grant them such rights we can still hold responsible people who affirm these machines are not psychopathic. And as said we do treat psychopathic people, even people who are only a harm to themselves. The people who undergo such treatment often do not consent to it or do not have full capacity of understanding what they are consenting to.

So you've hand waved everything away and you assert stuff and that's all I will say. :) I also don't want to argue with you, so unless you can refute anything here save your keyboard. :)
 
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