Scientific and logical objections to evolution...

alloytoo

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It just gets sadder and sadder.

I'm still trying to grasp the mental gymnastics that results in the denial of a "designer" in the whole "Intelligent Design" concept.

I mean the whole thing is set up to imply "agency", right up until the point where you want to identify the "agent" who then disappears in a cloud of smoke.
 

DrJohnZoidberg

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I've just been browsing rationalskeptismforums.org and found a great sticky for creationist types to read before attempting to post there. Specifically two points in this sticky are very relevant to what has been discussed recently in this thread and they are very well formulated responses.

[11] The tiresome conflation of evolutionary theory with abiogenesis (with Big Bang side salad).

A favourite one, this, among the creationists who come here. Which always results in the critical thinkers going into petunias mode (read Douglas Adams in order to understand that reference). Since so many creationists are woefully ill-educated in this area, I shall now correct that deficit in their learning.

Evolutionary theory is a theory arising from biology, and its remit consists of explaining the observed diversity of the biosphere once living organisms exist. The origin of life is a separate question, and one which is covered by the theory of naturalistic abiogenesis, which is a theory arising from a different scientific discipline, namely organic chemistry. Learn this distinction before posting, otherwise you will simply be regarded as ignorant and ill-educated.

While we're at it, evolutionary theory does not consider questions about the origin of Planet Earth itself, nor does it consider questions about the origin of the universe. The first of these questions is covered by planetary accretion theory, the second by cosmology, both of which arise from physics. As a consequence of learning this, if you subsequently erect the tiresome conflation of evolutionary theory with the Big Bang or the origin of the Earth, be prepared to be laughed at.

As a corollary of the above, it is time to deal with:


[12] The Pasteur canard.

We have had several people erecting this canard here, and it usually takes the form of the erection of the statement "life does not come from non-life", usually with a badly cited reference to the work of Louis Pasteur. This particular piece of duplicitous apologetics, apart from being duplicitous, is also fatuous. The reason being that Louis Pasteur erected his "Law of Biogenesis" specifically for the purpose of refuting the mediaeval notion of spontaneous generation, a ridiculous notion which claimed that fully formed multicellular eukaryote organisms arose directly from dust or some similar inanimate medium. First, the modern theory of abiogenesis did not exist when Pasteur erected this law; second, the modern theory of abiogenesis does not postulate the sort of nonsense that abounded in mediaeval times (and which, incidentally, was accepted by supernaturalists in that era); and third, as a methodologically rigorous empiricist, Pasteur would wholeheartedly accept the large quantity of evidence provided by modern abiogenesis researchers if he were still alive.
I would recommend anybody to read this sticky as it outlines all the major angles which creationists use to attack science. Can find it here: http://www.rationalskepticism.org/creationism/calilasseia-creationists-read-this-t429.html#p3674
 

Swa

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The evidence is yours to refute or explain in a different logical manner. You haven't.
Oh jees. It was but you keep just dismissing it.

They have not been provided. There is none showing. You think you are speaking sense but that doesn't mean you are actually doing so. In fact, to most here it is quite clear you aren't.

Yep.
Evolutionists don't want to see the evidence. They don't want to consider it. They don't want to take in what it all means because this is what happens when one does.

So after all this you still don't know how what evolution actually is? Madness! Yes, *that* is evolution.
Theories that explain everything explain nothing. Madness indeed. :)

Which is what your fellow brother in christ have been trying to get into your head with little success. Also no one here has made any kind of ****ing argument that because of evolution, there is no God. Jesus ****ing wept. And is still weeping. I think it is the abject stupidity that makes Him cry.
So God just took different genes and put them together to make separate creatures and then took genes from different creatures and implanted them in others. Fits perfectly with all the mountains of evidence. Fits better actually and it's just change, shifting of atoms, it's evolution.

Which claim now? Common decent? See above for that. Otherwise you need to try to communicate better.
Yes common descent.

Oh the irony...
Irony indeed. ;)

Fair enough. One can perhaps argue that some parts of me being an individual human being began to exist some time earlier than I did. In fact this is trivially true. This of course does not change the simple fact that I, as an individual human being, began to exist.
I'm surprised you didn't see the contradiction in his post. He claims you existed since the start of the universe but then that your atoms were created in stars. Which one is it? :confused:

"required"? You mean you require it.
Common sense requires it.

Does it? Always? Try again.
It does.

In some cases that might be all that's required.
You mean in some cases all that's required is a mechanism? Exactly what I said. Pity no mechanism has been provided then.

Wait... is Swa talking about informational entropy in a discussion about the second law of thermodynamics to do with (in this instance) molecular systems?!?!?!

ROFL
Pity you choose to ignore stuff as you admitted or you wouldn't be laughing in ignorance.

I'm still trying to grasp the mental gymnastics that results in the denial of a "designer" in the whole "Intelligent Design" concept.

I mean the whole thing is set up to imply "agency", right up until the point where you want to identify the "agent" who then disappears in a cloud of smoke.
Denial of a designer? You seem confused.
 

Swa

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I've just been browsing rationalskeptismforums.org and found a great sticky for creationist types to read before attempting to post there. Specifically two points in this sticky are very relevant to what has been discussed recently in this thread and they are very well formulated responses.


I would recommend anybody to read this sticky as it outlines all the major angles which creationists use to attack science. Can find it here: http://www.rationalskepticism.org/creationism/calilasseia-creationists-read-this-t429.html#p3674
That's just someone's opinion. As I showed biology textbooks don't treat it as a separate question. It only becomes a separate question suddenly when it's a problem.

And knowing what Pasteur would accept now as well? Consulting mediums are they?
 

alloytoo

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Common sense requires it.

Why does common sense require that things become less complex?


Seems to me an isolated system with no entropy could be as easy to describe as an isolated system at maximum entropy.

The bits in between, where entropy is changing, now they're more complex.


Denial of a designer? You seem confused.

I encounter it frequently, I call it the "Peter Syndrome"

Would you care to define the Designer in ID?
 

cyghost

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Oh jees. It was but you keep just dismissing it.
Oh jeez. It wasn't... you keep hand waving but there is no substance.
Evolutionists don't want to see the evidence. They don't want to consider it. They don't want to take in what it all means because this is what happens when one does.
roflol ~ no evolution (common decent) therefor Jesus; that has got to be the most ****ed up argument out there! Logic, you are doing it wrong matey. A logical fallacy does not a good argument make!
Theories that explain everything explain nothing. Madness indeed. :)
It explains the diversity of life. The explanations deal specifically with life which is why your conflation with abiogenesis is so hilarious. *You* are the only one who thinks it 'explains everything' lol
So God just took different genes and put them together to make separate creatures and then took genes from different creatures and implanted them in others. Fits perfectly with all the mountains of evidence. Fits better actually and it's just change, shifting of atoms, it's evolution.
There is no God. Wtf are you on about? Ask the people who believe in fairy tales how this magic is suppose to work. I'm quite happy with the state of affairs where we actually explain things and not waffle on about woo.
Irony indeed. ;)
You don't do this thing very well do you? Don't worry, it gets better with experience.
 

Swa

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Why does common sense require that things become less complex?
According to your definition they do but what we see happening in nature is the opposite.

Seems to me an isolated system with no entropy could be as easy to describe as an isolated system at maximum entropy.

The bits in between, where entropy is changing, now they're more complex.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy
In classical thermodynamics, the concept of entropy is defined phenomenologically by the second law of thermodynamics, which states that the entropy of an isolated system always increases or remains constant. Thus, entropy is also a measure of the tendency of a process, such as a chemical reaction, to be entropically favored, or to proceed in a particular direction. It determines that thermal energy always flows spontaneously from regions of higher temperature to regions of lower temperature, in the form of heat.
Heat flows from hotter to cooler areas until equilibrium is reached. No more useful energy is available and maximum entropy is reached. As only heat transfer occurred you could still describe it just as easily but such a system wouldn't be performing much work so to add heat from inside energy conversion is needed:
These processes reduce the state of order of the initial systems, and therefore entropy is an expression of disorder or randomness. This is the basis of the modern microscopic interpretation of entropy in statistical mechanics, where entropy is defined as the amount of additional information needed to specify the exact physical state of a system, given its thermodynamic specification. The second law is then a consequence of this definition and the fundamental postulate of statistical mechanics.
This entropy increases as the state of order is reduced and the system becomes less describable. At the same time thermal entropy in the system is still decreasing so entropy is being traded. Overall both a therefor tending toward increasing and not decreasing entropy.

What Asimov states about entropy and order (or his and my definition of complexity) is therefor correct but he then uses it in a convoluted manner. Entropy increases as a result of a mechanism (e.g. chemical reaction) releasing energy and becoming less orderly. A reaction is going on in the sun increasing it's entropy and he assumes this is enough to decrease the entropy of earth. On the face of it yes, but he's speaking of complexity and gives no mechanism for it to cause structures to become more orderly.

I encounter it frequently, I call it the "Peter Syndrome"

Would you care to define the Designer in ID?
I don't see why a designer should be defined. That would require examining the design and extrapolating personality from it. A philosophical and not a science question. My personal belief that God is the creator (not designer) doesn't have anything to do with science.

Oh jeez. It wasn't... you keep hand waving but there is no substance.
Considered that that is actually what you are doing?

roflol ~ no evolution (common decent) therefor Jesus; that has got to be the most ****ed up argument out there! Logic, you are doing it wrong matey. A logical fallacy does not a good argument make!
No it's seeing the evidence against evolution AND for creation. You keep denying the evidence for creation when it's staring you in the face so assume it's proving creation by disproving evolution. You're the one employing the fallacy mate.

It explains the diversity of life. The explanations deal specifically with life which is why your conflation with abiogenesis is so hilarious. *You* are the only one who thinks it 'explains everything' lol
Yeah sure. Mutations happen or they don't. Mutations are either beneficial or not. Nature either "selects" things or it doesn't. Things evolve or they don't (living fossils). Yeah sure these so-so stories don't explain everything. :rolleyes:

There is no God. Wtf are you on about? Ask the people who believe in fairy tales how this magic is suppose to work. I'm quite happy with the state of affairs where we actually explain things and not waffle on about woo.
There is no God? Who's the one making unsubstantiated waffle now? You didn't answer the question in a clear way though. Very telling.
 

cyghost

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You keep denying the evidence for creation when it's staring you in the face so assume it's proving creation by disproving evolution.
Evidence for creation please.
You're the one employing the fallacy mate.
Could you name the fallacy please? I so hate to commit fallacies.
Yeah sure. Mutations happen or they don't. Mutations are either beneficial or not. Nature either "selects" things or it doesn't. Things evolve or they don't (living fossils). Yeah sure these so-so stories don't explain everything. :rolleyes:
Mutations don't happen? Are you for real?
There is no God? Who's the one making unsubstantiated waffle now?
I am. But I'll man up to it. I have decided to assert with the best of them. I'll freely admit I don't have your experience in this so be understanding.
You didn't answer the question in a clear way though. Very telling.
You ask me how God does his magic and when I say I have no ****ing idea, I don't think either God or magic exists, that is telling to you? erm ok then.
 

CoolBug

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I don't get why you guys don't just say: okay Swa, you're right, you win.

Unless you want to see 400 posts become 1000 posts of the same bs. Obviously he'll just laugh off any evidence that we present.

He's not seeking truth, he's here to win his argument.

It's like those people who believe in ancient aliens or conspiracy theorists who wack to tragedy, there is no convincing them.

You can't win arguments against these sorts of extreme fundamentalists.

You can win court cases though, courts require evidence, thank jesus!
 
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alloytoo

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According to your definition they do but what we see happening in nature is the opposite.

Nope, not according to my definition. according to your wishes apparently.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy

Heat flows from hotter to cooler areas until equilibrium is reached. No more useful energy is available and maximum entropy is reached. As only heat transfer occurred you could still describe it just as easily but such a system wouldn't be performing much work so to add heat from inside energy conversion is needed:

This entropy increases as the state of order is reduced and the system becomes less describable. At the same time thermal entropy in the system is still decreasing so entropy is being traded. Overall both a therefor tending toward increasing and not decreasing entropy.

What Asimov states about entropy and order (or his and my definition of complexity) is therefor correct but he then uses it in a convoluted manner. Entropy increases as a result of a mechanism (e.g. chemical reaction) releasing energy and becoming less orderly. A reaction is going on in the sun increasing it's entropy and he assumes this is enough to decrease the entropy of earth. On the face of it yes, but he's speaking of complexity and gives no mechanism for it to cause structures to become more orderly.

Nope, you're not paying attention. We are using my definition of complexity which is unrelated to thermodynamics. Keep up.


I don't see why a designer should be defined. That would require examining the design and extrapolating personality from it. A philosophical and not a science question. My personal belief that God is the creator (not designer) doesn't have anything to do with science.

Which god? (I favour FSM myself)
 

cyghost

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I think we all realise that CoolBug. It is just that I happen to have some free time and the drama over at ratskep is blowing over so where will I get my fix? A pity the powers that be has decided to allow the science subforum to be sullied by such bull**** but I have learned to go with the flow.

I have tried Porch's way of putting a member on ignore eons or so ago, but I think it isn't working for him, just like it wasn't for me. I now ignore people and posts by shear willpower. And to prove it I shall ignore Swa in Science from hence on forward.

Except if he provides evidence for creation, then I'll carve "fancy that" with a compass on my cock and shout hallelujah from the rooftops.




*with respects to Tim
 

CoolBug

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My personal belief that God is the creator (not designer) doesn't have anything to do with science.

And there you have it.

He is against science, he doesn't care about truth.

Get rid of your phone, computer, automobile and all your technology that Science gave you, or you're a hypocrit.
 

DrJohnZoidberg

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Okay, excuse me for bluntly copying and pasting from another forum, but these responses are so well presented I can't ignore it.

From the same page from rationalskeptismforums.org I linked to earlier, obviously Swa did not take the time to read through it as this would have clearly explained the holes in his laws of thermodynamics argument.

Part 1:

[27] Tiresome canards about evolution and the laws of thermodynamics.

And how tiresome these canards are. Not least because they've been debunked in the past, even without reference to relevant scientific literature, by people who pay attention to the scientific basics. Once the relevant scientific literature is consulted, these canards become visibly asinine.

I'll deal with the Second Law of Thermodynamics to start with, because that one is a creationist favourite, though when creationists parrot this specious nonsense, they merely demonstrate that they know nothing about the relevant physics, and certainly never paid attention to the actual words of Rudolf Clausius, who erected the Laws of Thermodynamics, and who was rigorous when doing so. Therefore, let us see what Clausius actually stated, shall we?

Rudolf Clausius erects this statement of the Second Law of Thermodynamics:

In an isolated system, a process can occur only if it increases the total entropy of the system.

Now Clausius defined rigorously what was meant by three different classes of thermodynamic system, and in his work, specified explicitly that the operation of the laws of thermodynamics differed subtly in each instance. The three classes of system Clausius defined were as follows:

[27a] An isolated system is a system that engages in no exchanges of energy or matter with the surroundings;

[27b] A closed system is a system that engages in exchanges of energy with the surroundings, but does not engage in exchange of matter with the surroundings;

[27c] An open system is a system that engages in exchanges of both matter and energy with the surroundings.

Now, Clausius' statement above clearly and explicitly refers to isolated systems, which, thus far, have been found to be an idealised abstraction, as no truly isolated system has ever been found. Indeed, in order to create even an approximation to an isolated system in order to perform precise calorimetric measurements, physicists have to resort to considerable ingenuity in order to minimise energy exchanges with the surroundings, particularly given the pervasive nature of heat. Even then, they cannot make the system completely isolated, because they need to have some means of obtaining measurement data from that system, which has to be conveyed to the surroundings, and this process itself requires energy. Physicists can only construct a closed system, in which, courtesy of much ingenuity, energy exchanges with the surroundings are minimised and precisely controlled, and to achieve this result in a manner that satisfies the demands of precise work is time consuming, expensive and requires a lot of prior analysis of possible sources of energy exchange that need to be minimised and controlled.

However, the Earth is manifestly an open system. It is in receipt not only of large amounts of energy from outside (here's a hint: see that big yellow thing in the sky?) but is also in receipt of about 1,000 tons of matter per year in the form of particles of meteoritic origin from outer space. Some of these 'particles' are, on occasions, large enough to leave craters in the ground, such as that nice large one in Arizona. That particular dent in the Earth's surface is 1,200 metres in diameter, 170 metres deep, and has a ridge of material around the edges that rises 45 metres above the immediate landscape, and was excavated when a meteorite impacted the Earth's surface, generating a blast equivalent to a 20 megaton nuclear bomb. Hardly a characteristic of an isolated system.

Indeed, physicists have known for a long time, that if a particular system is a net recipient of energy from outside, then that energy can be harnessed within that system to perform useful work. Which is precisely what living organisms do. Indeed, they only harness a small fraction of the available incoming energy, yet this is sufficient to power the entire diversity of the biosphere, and the development of organisms of increasing sophistication over time. Scientists have published numerous papers (twelve of which are known to me, and this is an incomplete inventory of the extant literature) in which calculations have been performed demonstrating that the utilisation of energy by the biosphere, and by evolution, is orders of magnitude too small to violate thermodynamic concerns. Relevant papers in question being:

Entropy And Evolution by Daniel F. Styer, American Journal of Physics, 78(11): 1031-1033 (November 2008) DOI: 10.1119/1.2973046

Natural Selection As A Physical Principle by Alfred J. Lotka, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 8: 151-154 (1922) [full paper downloadable from here]

Evolution Of Biological Complexity by Christoph Adami, Charles Ofria and Travis C. Collier, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 97(9): 4463-4468 (25th April 2000) [Full paper downloadable from here]

Order From Disorder: The Thermodynamics Of Complexity In Biology by Eric D. Schneider and James J. Kay, in Michael P. Murphy, Luke A.J. O'Neill (ed), What is Life: The Next Fifty Years. Reflections on the Future of Biology, Cambridge University Press, pp. 161-172 [Full paper downloadable from here]

Natural Selection For Least Action by Ville R. I. Kaila and Arto Annila, Proceedings of the Royal Society of London Part A, 464: 3055-3070 (22nd july 2008) [Full paper downloadable from here]

Evolution And The Second Law Of Thermodynamics by Emory F. Bunn, arXiv.org, 0903.4603v1 (26th March 2009) [Download full paper from here]

All of these peer reviewed papers establish, courtesy of rigorous empirical and theoretical work, that evolution is perfectly consistent with the Second Law of Thermodynamics. I cover several of these in detail in this post, and it should be noted here that the notion that evolution was purportedly in "violation" of the Second Law of Thermodynamics was rejected in a paper written in 1922, which means that creationists who erect this canard are ignorant of scientific literature published over eighty years ago.

While covering this topic, it's also necessary to deal with the canard that entropy equals 'disorder'. This is a non-rigorous view of entropy that scientists engaged in precise work discarded some time ago. Not least because there are documented examples of systems that have a precisely calculated entropy increase after spontaneously self-organising into well-defined structures. Phospholipids are the classic example of such a system - a suspension of phospholipids in aqueous solution will spontaneously self-assemble into structures such as micelles, bilayer sheets and liposomes upon receiving an energy input consisting of nothing more than gentle agitation. In other words, just shake the bottle. Moreover, the following scientific paper discusses in some detail the fact that entropy can increase when a system becomes more ordered, a paper that was published in 1998, and hence, has been in circulation for over a decade now:

Gentle Force Of Entropy Bridges Disciplines by David Kestenbaum, Science, 279: 1849 (20th March 1998)
Kestenbaum, 1998 wrote:Normally, entropy is a force of disorder rather than organization. But physicists have recently explored the ways in which an increase in entropy in one part of a system can force another part into greater order. The findings have rekindled speculation that living cells might take advantage of this little-known trick of physics.
 

DrJohnZoidberg

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Part 2:

Entropy, as rigorously defined, has units of Joules per Kelvin, and is therefore a function of energy versus thermodynamic temperature. The simple fact of the matter is that if the thermodynamic temperature increases, then the total entropy of a given system decreases if no additional energy was input into the system in order to provide the increase in thermodynamic temperature. Star formation is an excellent example of this, because the thermodynamic temperature at the core of a gas cloud increases as the cloud coalesces under gravity. All that is required to increase the core temperature to the point where nuclear fusion is initiated is sufficient mass. No external energy is added to the system. Consequently, the entropy at the core decreases due to the influence of gravity driving up the thermodynamic temperature. Yet the highly compressed gas in the core is hardly "ordered".

STOP PRESS: as if to reinforce this point, my attention has just been drawn to this scientific paper:

Disordered, Quasicrystalline And Crystalline Phases Of Densely Packed Tetrahedra by Amir Haji-Akbari, Michael Engel, Aaron S. Keys, Xiaoyu Zheng, Rolfe G. Petschek, Peter Palffy-Muhoray and Sharon C. Glotzer, Nature, 462: 773-777 (10th December 2009)

The abstract is suitably informative here:
Haji-Akbari, 2009 wrote:
All hard, convex shapes are conjectured by Ulam to pack more densely than spheres1, which have a maximum packing fraction of φ = π/√18 ≈ 0.7405. Simple lattice packings of many shapes easily surpass this packing fraction2, 3. For regular tetrahedra, this conjecture was shown to be true only very recently; an ordered arrangement was obtained via geometric construction with φ = 0.7786 (ref. 4), which was subsequently compressed numerically to φ = 0.7820 (ref. 5), while compressing with different initial conditions led to φ = 0.8230 (ref. 6). Here we show that tetrahedra pack even more densely, and in a completely unexpected way. Following a conceptually different approach, using thermodynamic computer simulations that allow the system to evolve naturally towards high-density states, we observe that a fluid of hard tetrahedra undergoes a first-order phase transition to a dodecagonal quasicrystal7, 8, 9, 10, which can be compressed to a packing fraction of φ = 0.8324. By compressing a crystalline approximant of the quasicrystal, the highest packing fraction we obtain is φ = 0.8503. If quasicrystal formation is suppressed, the system remains disordered, jams and compresses to φ = 0.7858. Jamming and crystallization are both preceded by an entropy-driven transition from a simple fluid of independent tetrahedra to a complex fluid characterized by tetrahedra arranged in densely packed local motifs of pentagonal dipyramids that form a percolating network at the transition. The quasicrystal that we report represents the first example of a quasicrystal formed from hard or non-spherical particles. Our results demonstrate that particle shape and entropy can produce highly complex, ordered structures.


So as if the Kestenbaum paper on entropy driving ordered systems, and the empirical evidence from phospholipids were not enough, we now have this. Consequently, the message to creationists is simple: don't bother wasting your time posting the "evolution violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics" canard, because it is now well and truly busted.

Some creationists, however, erect a related, and in some respects, even more asinine canard, that evolution somehow violates the First Law of Thermodynamics. Guess who provided us with rigorous statements about this law? That's right, Rudolf Clausius again. Let's see what he actually stated with respect to this, shall we? The Clausius formulation of the First Law of Thermodynamics is this:

The increase in the internal energy of a system is equal to the amount of energy input into the system via heating, minus the energy lost as a result of the work done by the system upon its surroundings.

The mathematical expression of which is:

dU = δQ-δw

If the process is reversible, then this can be recast in terms of exact differentials by noting that δw is equal to P dV, where P is the internal pressure, and V the volume occupied, and that δQ is equal to T dS, where T is the thermodynamic temperature and S is the entropy of the system. Therefore this becomes dU = T dS - P dV.

Oh look. Clausius explicitly framed the First Law of Thermodynamics in terms of energy exchanges within a system. He did NOT assume constancy thereof. Indeed, the rigorous framing of the First Law of Thermodynamics explicitly takes into account the possibility of a system being a recipient of energy that can be used to perform useful work. Therefore creationist canards erected about the First Law of Thermodynamics are null and void for the same reasons as those erected about the Second Law of Thermodynamics - said canards not only ignore completely Clausius' original and rigorous formulations of those laws, and ignore completely that Clausius framed his formulations around energy exchanges between a system and its surroundings, but rely upon outright misrepresentations of those laws.

Indeed, Clausius had energy exchanges in mind with respect to the Second Law of Thermodynamics as well, which is why the statement on entropy was framed in terms of an isolated system, which engages in no such exchanges with the surroundings. When energy exchanges are taking place, the operation of the Second law of Thermodynamics within such systems is subtly different.

So, that drops another creationist canard into the toilet bowl of bad ideas and pulls the flush hard.
 

cyghost

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I don't think his statement supports that conclusion. He merely admits that God is a matter of belief and not science. Where he is losing the plot is thinking that ID is somehow science. He is a couple of years behind in that respect. And they never seem to catch up. *shrugs* (techne being the obvious exception to this rule - look how he has changed his tune, staunch ID supporter who know admits freely that it ain't science. Pity he took up the classical theism bull**** ~ I honestly don't know if that is a step up or not)
 

Techne

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And there you have it.

He is against science, he doesn't care about truth.
I think you probably misunderstand the statement. Swa is being intellectually honest when he states that God and creation have nothing to do with empirical science. They are logical and philosophical issues and very important issues. Let me explain. For the theist, the following statements are true:

1) God exists necessarily, in other words, God could not have not existed.
2) God has no limitations, God is not limited in perfection, in power, in goodness and in knowledge.
3) Nothing can come into being or continue to happen without God creating it and sustaining it in existence.

From this it just logically follows that every contingent being that has ever existed, exists now and will ever exist is just evidence of God creating and sustaining. Charges of "circular logic" are laid to rest by the fact that one can rationally come to such a conclusion via logical arguments (e.g. Aquinas' Five Ways).

Now, there are obviously problems with this view. I think the three main problems are as follows:

The first problem is associated with the view that finite contingent beings have powers of their own. For example, water has the power to dissolve salt. Humans have the power to have rational thoughts. Magnets have the power to attract or repel each other. However, if God exists then God is the cause of every change, every contingent power. This appears to be a problem for the view that humans are accountable for their actions and have their own powers (and anything else that has its own powers) to do things. So the classical theist has the problem of reconciling his view of his independent powers (and that of other things) and that of God’s unlimited power.

The second problem is associated with the various evils (natural, social and moral) associated with finite beings. If the following is correct…
1) God is unlimited in power and goodness and wills the good of every finite being.
2) Evil occurs and this entails that God is responsible for evil.
…then the classical theist is faced with believing a logical contradiction.

The third problem is associated with how we can even talk meaningfully about God. Since we are contingent finite beings, all our descriptions of God e.g. God’s power, goodness, knowledge etc. are limited. We may use comparative and superlative linguistic inventions by describing power and goodness and knowledge as either more or less but we are never able to fully understand the full essence of what it actually means to have unlimited power, goodness and knowledge since we are finite, contingent beings.

To be sure,these are logical and philosophical and/or metaphysical problems. Evidence is not a problem, the concept itself is a problem. Any person that is a classical theist has to grapple with these problems in an intellectually honest manner. As usual the problem lies in part with definitions as well as having a logical and coherent metaphysical view. I don’t think the problems are insoluble, in fact I think the Scholastic tradition of philosophy has gone a long way in engaging with these problems and I think there are good approaches to dissolving each of these problems. The point being, empirical science is irrelevant to being a theist or not.
 

porchrat

Honorary Master
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
34,278
Thanks Zoidberg. Hopefully that puts that particular brand of lunacy to rest with Swa.
 
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