self taught programmer vs qualified programmer.

[semaphore]

You must have a 200IQ my dude This may as well be zulu to me.

It’s not remotely as complicated as you think it is.

 

[cguy]

IMO it's honestly mostly about being able to solve the problem in front of you. There are fields (referred to by @notayoba above) that require highly analytical thinking, knowledge of algorithms, and how to roll your own, but they're vastly outnumbered by the more generic coders that tend to work on a small part of a very large machine.

Which is exactly why an education gives one a huge edge.

 

[Harmonic]

Lol. I googled this now with the fantasy that I could prove even a non-coder could understand it, and I don't know what the feck I just read.

I can't even decipher the sentences they use to describe it.

In linear algebra, an eigenvector or characteristic vector of a linear transformation is a nonzero vector that changes at most by a scalar factor when that linear transformation is applied to it. The corresponding eigenvalue, often denoted by \lambda, is the factor by which the eigenvector is scaled.

Hay?

You must have a 200IQ my dude This may as well be zulu to me.

Once you start from the bottom and the surrounding knowledge is built up, it's not as crazy as it sounds. This is the benefit of formal education though, and an area where many self taught developers may have gaps in their knowledge. Also this was just one example of a million one could choose. Some times people forget that computer science isn't actually about computers per se, it's a sub branch of mathematics first and foremost.

Practically writing a program in the language of your choice is a small subset of the broader body of knowledge.

 

[Magnum]

To be frank, if this place you’re talking about is hiring people who can’t modify strings, assigns both of them to that task, and then exposes them to users in a way that crashes the database, there’s something far more fundamentally wrong than just 2 bozos.

They fall under consultants. And management is extatic about their performance to date. I don't have long left here. Everything is unraveling at an accelerated pace now.

 

[Gnome]

Studying/Degree is self selecting. People who are curious and keep asking why until they understand something fully are the same people that typically study to get a degree.

Is it possible to be a strong software engineer without a degree, yes, a degree has nothing to do with it. But most of the time it doesn't happen because the type of people that usually have that mindset end up studying.

A lot of companies will accept people without degrees or give them a chance. But in my experience, more often than not, no degree typically means the person will not have the drive to keep digging until they completely and fully understand a topic before moving on. And really as an engineer that is how you get good at solving problems. You gain enormous depth of knowledge.

 

[PaulGherkin]

I

Studying/Degree is self selecting. People who are curious and keep asking why until they understand something fully are the same people that typically study to get a degree.

Is it possible to be a strong software engineer without a degree, yes, a degree has nothing to do with it. But most of the time it doesn't happen because the type of people that usually have that mindset end up studying.

A lot of companies will accept people without degrees or give them a chance. But in my experience, more often than not, no degree typically means the person will not have the drive to keep digging until they completely and fully understand a topic before moving on. And really as an engineer that is how you get good at solving problems. You gain enormous depth of knowledge.

didn't have the money to study.
Then when I got a job and family there was no time either.
Its a moot point anyway, because I do have the drive, as my accomplishments reflect.

 

[Gnome]

I

didn't have the money to study.
Then when I got a job and family there was no time either.
Its a moot point anyway, because I do have the drive, as my accomplishments reflect.

A few things.

1. Drive and success has nothing to do with engineering mindset. Keep digging until you completely understand something is not synonymous with success. It is however important for a software engineer. And in fact any kind of engineering.
2. As I said, it is entirely possible. Anything is possible. The common case, in my experience, is that it doesn't happen. But make no mistake, it happens. If you take a step back and not focus just on your experience but the industry as a whole, you'll see that it is very rare for people without a degree to make it in software engineering. You are an anomaly and not the typical case.

I've only really worked for larger corporates, perhaps in smaller businesses this happens more often that people without degrees get hired into the role. In my current company I don't even bother seeing if someone has a degree for an interview. It is irrelevant when I'm interviewing. But looking at the folks who have gotten hired, when we chat about it, 99% of the folks have degrees of some kind.

 

[cguy]

If you take a step back and not focus just on your experience but the industry as a whole, you'll see that it is very rare for people without a degree to make it in software engineering. You are an anomaly and not the typical case.

Definitely an anomaly :

When I left SA I was earning R1.1m pa as a senior lead developer (which included wearing the software architect hat often). Now I am in the land of Cheese Makers earning a decent salary too- my skills got me in there.

I was making around 1.5/yr before I left SA. Experience is key. Specialist knowledge? Ah yes, then the numbers go up sharply...

I cannot afford school fees because my wife lost her job. Without the school fees we are more or less OK

I've only really worked for larger corporates, perhaps in smaller businesses this happens more often that people without degrees get hired into the role. In my current company I don't even bother seeing if someone has a degree for an interview. It is irrelevant when I'm interviewing. But looking at the folks who have gotten hired, when we chat about it, 99% of the folks have degrees of some kind.

I have always worked in such environments myself, but from what I've seen and heard, this is generally only true above a certain level/type of work. There are armies of front-end developers out there without degrees. This is also a very good reason to get a degree.

 

[PaulGherkin]

A few things.

1. Drive and success has nothing to do with engineering mindset. Keep digging until you completely understand something is not synonymous with success. It is however important for a software engineer. And in fact any kind of engineering.
2. As I said, it is entirely possible. Anything is possible. The common case, in my experience, is that it doesn't happen. But make no mistake, it happens. If you take a step back and not focus just on your experience but the industry as a whole, you'll see that it is very rare for people without a degree to make it in software engineering. You are an anomaly and not the typical case.

I've only really worked for larger corporates, perhaps in smaller businesses this happens more often that people without degrees get hired into the role. In my current company I don't even bother seeing if someone has a degree for an interview. It is irrelevant when I'm interviewing. But looking at the folks who have gotten hired, when we chat about it, 99% of the folks have degrees of some kind.

Thanks for telling me my life was pointless. Unfortunately your dismissive view of my career is unfounded. What I did without a freaking degree, got me into another country mate. They PAID for the move, the work permit, etc...

 

[Bryn]

A few things.

1. Drive and success has nothing to do with engineering mindset. Keep digging until you completely understand something is not synonymous with success. It is however important for a software engineer. And in fact any kind of engineering.
2. As I said, it is entirely possible. Anything is possible. The common case, in my experience, is that it doesn't happen. But make no mistake, it happens. If you take a step back and not focus just on your experience but the industry as a whole, you'll see that it is very rare for people without a degree to make it in software engineering. You are an anomaly and not the typical case.

I've only really worked for larger corporates, perhaps in smaller businesses this happens more often that people without degrees get hired into the role. In my current company I don't even bother seeing if someone has a degree for an interview. It is irrelevant when I'm interviewing. But looking at the folks who have gotten hired, when we chat about it, 99% of the folks have degrees of some kind.

I have no hard evidence to back this claim, but this opinion is based on working with a large number of teams around the world over the last 6 years and also conversations with friends and friendly acquaintances at some of our biggest corporates: I am convinced that software teams in SA are amongst the worst in the world.

To anyone reading this thread who isn't qualified, don't feel put off by some anecdotal evidence pertaining to our local s**tshow of an industry. Develop your skills and work remotely for overseas companies. You'll earn 3-5 times more and be involved with wonderful teams that are on top of current hiring and management practices.

 

[10:10]

This question may not be related to the OP's question, but it is one I would like to ask. I have real problems when it comes to learning anything. Would someone like myself be able to learn software development? I have the willpower, but lack motivation because of my situation.

 

[Bryn]

This question may not be related to the OP's question, but it is one I would like to ask. I have real problems when it comes to learning anything. Would someone like myself be able to learn software development? I have the willpower, but lack motivation because of my situation.

The motivation is to survive. Jump into the fire over and over again, and upskill as your projects and deadlines require you to.

There are an infinite number of ways to start small. Codecademy, Scrimba, freelance a niche, build websites, do whatever. Start somewhere and scale up with the ambition of your projects and clients. Eventually, job offers will come or you'll feel confident enough to apply for some. I recommend overseas companies over anything local.

 

[Gnome]

Thanks for telling me my life was pointless

How on earth did you get to that conclusion?

 

[Barbarian Conan]

This question may not be related to the OP's question, but it is one I would like to ask. I have real problems when it comes to learning anything. Would someone like myself be able to learn software development? I have the willpower, but lack motivation because of my situation.

What do you see as "learning"?
Learning like in school where you sit behind a book and memorize stuff? That's not really applicable for most.

You learn programming by doing and understanding. And I'm sure there are some devs that get by without the understanding part.

That said, some people just find it difficult to grasp some concepts and think in an abstract way, but you won't know if you can do it if you don't try.

 

[PaulGherkin]

How on earth did you get to that conclusion?

Your post style, and other subtle clues gave it all away. I know who you are and at which shop you work at.
Your shop won't touch people without degrees, or people self-taught who can't explain stupid idiotic design patterns, class overriding for the pure power trip of it, and more.

But its fine because truth be told, if art was as well paying as IT, I'd sure as heck quit right now. Most degreed folk I have worked with are either colossal pricks with entitlement complexes or feel the need to treat me like a subhuman. All fine. I do what I do to make a Euro, I just look forward to retirement now when I can spend my days in Amsterdam painting abstracts... and not have to ever worry about Agile again.

 

[cguy]

Your post style, and other subtle clues gave it all away. I know who you are and at which shop you work at.
Your shop won't touch people without degrees, or people self-taught who can't explain stupid idiotic design patterns, class overriding for the pure power trip of it, and more.

But its fine because truth be told, if art was as well paying as IT, I'd sure as heck quit right now. Most degreed folk I have worked with are either colossal pricks with entitlement complexes or feel the need to treat me like a subhuman. All fine. I do what I do to make a Euro, I just look forward to retirement now when I can spend my days in Amsterdam painting abstracts... and not have to ever worry about Agile again.

And people say filtering by degree doesn’t work…

 

[Gnome]

Your post style, and other subtle clues gave it all away.

Guy relax, I told you that it isn't common to have made it as a software engineer without a degree.
That doesn't mean you can't make it or that I don't believe you or think you don't deserve it.
Jeez man, I have no qualms at all with where you are or your skill set and I believe you.
I was pointing out that it is rare for it to be the case.

I know who you are and at which shop you work at.
Your shop won't touch people without degrees, or people self-taught who can't explain stupid idiotic design patterns, class overriding for the pure power trip of it, and more.

Ok...
I don't see it that way, but to each his own.
Also 100% have we hired people without degrees.
But I think that isn't really the topic here, more that you somehow think I look down on people with degrees
Nothing can be further from the truth.

I don't really see much value in degrees.
I got one myself because it was the thing to do but looking back I'm frustrated by many aspects of it.
More importantly I put little value in it.

Doesn't change that the data shows most of the time people without degrees don't do well in that area.
Again I don't say it doesn't happen, simply that you are not the common case, you have gone a path that 99% of your peers cannot/will not/do not whichever.

That is more a reflection on your dedication and ability to self learn than anything.
Not sure how you could see that being negative.

Honestly I think you are reading something into my post that I never said nor even thought.
You need to consider if you are maybe drawing conclusions due to an insecurity you have rather than the reality (with respect)
I wouldn't respect anyone I work with that looks down on anyone.

 

[47Ronin]

I personally see programming as a tool to earn. It isn't anything more than that. I am glad to see that opportunities to earn exist for self-taught programmers. This will allow me to push forward.

 

[Hamster]

You can teach yourself Rust and companies will beg you to work for them. I heard even God is considering rewriting the Bible in Rust.

Checkmate. Degrees are useless.

 

[cguy]

You can teach yourself Rust and companies will beg you to work for them. I heard even God is considering rewriting the Bible in Rust.

Checkmate. Degrees are useless.

Yeah, but it’s hard to follow the O’Reilly book: “Intelligent Design Patterns”, without a degree. You may end up with more platypuses.