That screams for ethernet with fibre in the risers.
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Setting up a DSLAM - issues/suggestions?
- Thread starter Bern
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That screams for ethernet with fibre in the risers.
I think that this is debatable
Telkom may argue that it is their asset but their case is not very strong. The precedent has however not yet been set.If you think more generally about the rules and law regarding ownership and transfer of property then the Telkom cables form part of the building since they are "affixed" in the same way that electrical fittings, dstv dishes and other attached items become part of the building as soon as they are installed. Although the standards have changed over the years - in modern multi-tenant buildings Telkom expects the the property owner to foot the bill for the installation. Unless an agreement is signed to the contrary - that installation forms part of the building regardless of whether it was put in by a Telkom contractor or a third party.
I have spoken to a few learned people regarding this and their opinion is that the legal Telkom demarkation point is the entry point into the building - either the terminal box on the outside of a single user building or the building DP in the case of multi-tenant. Telkom does still make an effort to maintain the internal building wiring to ensure continuity of service but their are a number of restrictions on how far the technicians are allowed to go with this. I know a number of people who installed and maintain their own Telkom wiring in their houses for this very reason.
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eddief1
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This is a very interesting subject, does anyone have a firm answer regarding the laws of using the existing "telkom" copper in a gated estate...we would like to do the same thing as Bern...install DSLAM at building/gated estate entrance. Legal ?
IANAL
If you need real legal advice then I suggest that you chat to real telecoms lawyers like dominic.
MickeyD
RIP
I think that this is debatable
I you think more generally about the rules and law regarding ownership and transfer of property then the Telkom cables form part of the building since they are "affixed" in the same way they electrical fittings, dstv dishes and other attached items become part of the building as soon as they are installed. Although the standards have changed over the years - in modern multi-tenant buildings Telkom expects the the property owner to foot the bill for the installation. Unless an agreement is signed to the contrary - that installation forms part of the building regardless of whether it was put in by a Telkom contractor or a third party.
I have spoken to a few learned people regarding this and their opinion is that the legal Telkom demarkation point is the entry point into the building - either the terminal box on the outside of a single user building or the building DP in the case of multi-tenant. Telkom does still make an effort to maintain the internal building wiring to ensure continuity of service but their are a number of restrictions on how far the technicians are allowed to go with this. I know a number of people who installed and maintain their own Telkom wiring in their houses for this very reason.
Are you referring to the ducts or the cabling? They are two different issues.
Ducting can be debated, but if Telkom installed the cabling at their own cost and for their own benefit then it remains their asset. Forever. Or until someone asks to purchase the reticulation, whereupon a price will be negotiated for the change of ownership.
eddief1
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I agree with MickeyD, i can't see how Telkom would allow access to their cabling, if they do they have effectively started building the
infrastructure for the ECN license holders, ECN guys just have to install DSLAM at premises entrance and backhaul with wireless or fiber if they can afford it. A residential complex can easily have over 100 units, that's probably km's of cabling...are Telkom going to allow the ECN license holders access to this ? Without a fight i think not
infrastructure for the ECN license holders, ECN guys just have to install DSLAM at premises entrance and backhaul with wireless or fiber if they can afford it. A residential complex can easily have over 100 units, that's probably km's of cabling...are Telkom going to allow the ECN license holders access to this ? Without a fight i think not
Bern
Expert Member
After a discussion and inspection at the building decided to go ethernet for horizontal (endpoints) and fibre for vertical (backhaul). Just a whiff of Telkom legal and the problems associated with DSL make it not worth the effort. Building has nice vertical shaft for backhaul and hollow ceiling runs with lots of space to easily run cable to each apartment
Wonder if the building can sell the old copper cables for scrap....
Wonder if the building can sell the old copper cables for scrap....
MickeyD
RIP
Nope. I advise that they contact Telkom to remove it. As you said, you don't want Telkom legal near you!
Click on province and then look up your exchange area to find the contact person... http://www.telkom.co.za/minisites/utilities
Bern
Expert Member
Was in jest;P Going to just leave them in so if people want to stick with Telkom they can, although I am going to be offering them the option to port their Telkom number to a SIP based solution with call rates almost the same as FNB Connect
How about that as a value proposition.After a discussion and inspection at the building decided to go ethernet for horizontal (endpoints) and fibre for vertical (backhaul). Just a whiff of Telkom legal and the problems associated with DSL make it not worth the effort. Building has nice vertical shaft for backhaul and hollow ceiling runs with lots of space to easily run cable to each apartment
Wonder if the building can sell the old copper cables for scrap....
Probably your best option. have you looked at wireless? We have a client that due to some restrictions is running their entire internal network of Mikrotik Access Points and I'm really impressed how well it works.
Also what are your plans for the backhaul to the internet, just for interest sake?
Bern
Expert Member
Going to add wireless as part of the solution, but not the primary. I am looking to run the DSTV/TOPTV/etc and other such services which will tax wireless a bit much.
Backhaul, lighting some fibre to an ISP, not sure which one just yet
Still finalising, but looks good.Wimbo
Well-Known Member
Get a Licence
IANAL.
However, if I may give you some advice: -
Get a licence. These come in two flavours: ECNS and ECS. An ECNS Licence entitles you to build a physical network, and sell use of it on a wholesale basis to other licensees - including yourself. An ECS licence entitles you to sell retail services to the public.
You can get a Class Licence for either. Use this form: http://www.ellipsis.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/registration-for-class-licence-04042008.pdf
The Class ECNS licence will permit you to build a network in any one municipality. Always go for a Metro or District Municipality instead of a Local Municipality. The cost is the same. A Class ECS licence entitles you to provide services nationwide, but not to have numbers from the national registry (011-, 012-, 087-, etc.) Either license costs you R10,000 and a maximum of 60 working days. Get both, and you are safe. Alternatively, if you really want Individual licences, you can buy them from someone who isn't using them, for several hundred thousand, plus R100,000 to ICASA. An Individual ECNS licence gives you national (or provincial, in the unlikely event that you want that) coverage, and an Individual ECS licence entitles you to apply to ICASA for numbers. This makes life much easier when interconnecting with other operators. However, it's a whole heap easier to simply get the numbers - and the interconnection - from another licensed operator, for a fee.
It's your choice whether you use the existing telephone wiring or lay new CAT5 wiring. The latter will obviously cost you much more, and has severe distance limitations. A simple DSLAM, with Mikrotik as the BRAS / PPPoE server will work well on this scale. Your best bet is probably to put a DSLAM on each floor, with fibre or CAT5/6 in the risers. If a DSLAM fails, you simply replace it with a spare. You can run Mikrotik in a dual redundant mode for the back end, in the basement or whatever. Naturally, good power backup and protection is required.
Generally speaking, there's no difficulty in using the building wiring, provided that you have the Landlord's permission. I know people who have done exactly this.
Buy your backhaul form a suitable provider. Having an ECNS licence will make this easier, and possibly cheaper. If the distance and volumes warrant it, then the cheapest solution may be to rent fibre from DFA (R5/m per month) Very cheap for high volumes of data, very expensive for low volumes / long distances.
If you're doing this at anything larger than a small scale, then I'd advise you to get your fibre to the nearest IXP (JINX or CINX). Join ISPA and peer at the IXP and buy transit from one of the other ISPs there.
Consult a real lawyer, like Dominic, for legal advice. Consult a technical expert (ISPA has lots of them, many of whom will give you an hour of their time mahala. Expect to pay for more than that) for technical advice.
HTH
IANAL.
However, if I may give you some advice: -
Get a licence. These come in two flavours: ECNS and ECS. An ECNS Licence entitles you to build a physical network, and sell use of it on a wholesale basis to other licensees - including yourself. An ECS licence entitles you to sell retail services to the public.
You can get a Class Licence for either. Use this form: http://www.ellipsis.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/registration-for-class-licence-04042008.pdf
The Class ECNS licence will permit you to build a network in any one municipality. Always go for a Metro or District Municipality instead of a Local Municipality. The cost is the same. A Class ECS licence entitles you to provide services nationwide, but not to have numbers from the national registry (011-, 012-, 087-, etc.) Either license costs you R10,000 and a maximum of 60 working days. Get both, and you are safe. Alternatively, if you really want Individual licences, you can buy them from someone who isn't using them, for several hundred thousand, plus R100,000 to ICASA. An Individual ECNS licence gives you national (or provincial, in the unlikely event that you want that) coverage, and an Individual ECS licence entitles you to apply to ICASA for numbers. This makes life much easier when interconnecting with other operators. However, it's a whole heap easier to simply get the numbers - and the interconnection - from another licensed operator, for a fee.
It's your choice whether you use the existing telephone wiring or lay new CAT5 wiring. The latter will obviously cost you much more, and has severe distance limitations. A simple DSLAM, with Mikrotik as the BRAS / PPPoE server will work well on this scale. Your best bet is probably to put a DSLAM on each floor, with fibre or CAT5/6 in the risers. If a DSLAM fails, you simply replace it with a spare. You can run Mikrotik in a dual redundant mode for the back end, in the basement or whatever. Naturally, good power backup and protection is required.
Generally speaking, there's no difficulty in using the building wiring, provided that you have the Landlord's permission. I know people who have done exactly this.
Buy your backhaul form a suitable provider. Having an ECNS licence will make this easier, and possibly cheaper. If the distance and volumes warrant it, then the cheapest solution may be to rent fibre from DFA (R5/m per month) Very cheap for high volumes of data, very expensive for low volumes / long distances.
If you're doing this at anything larger than a small scale, then I'd advise you to get your fibre to the nearest IXP (JINX or CINX). Join ISPA and peer at the IXP and buy transit from one of the other ISPs there.
Consult a real lawyer, like Dominic, for legal advice. Consult a technical expert (ISPA has lots of them, many of whom will give you an hour of their time mahala. Expect to pay for more than that) for technical advice.
HTH
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Bern
Expert Member
Thanks for all the input guys, I am speaking to the ISPs in CT to decide who will be the best to use for the bandwidith, the connect from the building to the ISP will be over CoCT fibre, managed by the ISP under their license most likely (don't see the point in trying to compete with ISPs at this point) and I will set up the infrastructure inside the building as well as manage it on behalf of the building (they will own it). I will also have various partners provide services such as VOIP and video to ensure all requirements are catered for.
Still busy working on numbers and once I have figures from the ISPs I will let you all know roughly what the resident's retail packages will look like
Still busy working on numbers and once I have figures from the ISPs I will let you all know roughly what the resident's retail packages will look like