Single water meter in sectional title scheme.

Leno said:
In PE the munucipality has given complexes and flats a few years (3 or 5 cant remember) to install individual meters.

We will be installing the meters that are read electronically as all of the mains connections are in multiple shafts in the building. Some of the flats get their water from 3 different feeds so they will have to pay for 3 meters!

I think the electronic meter will be from the municipality
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Bolded bit is what is happening to us right now. And labour and mats to bring the separate inputs to one communal input per unit is akin to daylight robbery.
 
we also have one meter, we were forced to install separate meters for each unit last year because the City was pressuring us to do something to curb water usage during the drought

but then the drought stopped and the City stopped pressuring us and so we just left everything as is because it would cost money to read the meters, other than that all the owners seem okay with the status quo, the water component is not a huge part of our levy in any event
 
Cius said:
Same issue in our complex. 72 units, one bill. Zero incentive to save water as it benefits you so little. Has been discussed a few times to get individual meters but the water mains where the meters would be attached are in inaccessible places for most units so it keeps stalling. Would need a wireless solution that can cost a lot.
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Well on the plus side at least the bill gets divided by 72. Smaller amounts of units more cost for wastage and leaks. On the negative side you might have a bunch more of water abuses
 
Flarsiep said:
6 people living frugally of water vs 2 wasters. Could even be that the 6 use less water.
Not saying it is the case here, just an example. I live in open complex and we have one old guy who just ignored all the rules bout water restrictions. watered his garden whenever he wanted to. one person took a photo of all the water meters, and the one old chap user double the water the next biggest user was, a house of 4 people.
So while splitting by bod count may seem more even, it is by no means more accurate.
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Well the odds are that more people more water use .Yes you absolutely get people who can waste more than others.But how would it be unconstitutional to have the cost of water divided by how many people in a unit as opposed to how it is now where 1 person is paying the same as 6.If one is unconstitutional then the other must also be?
 
isie said:
Get individual meters and bill per unit - not sure if this is joburg only but after that you can apply to the municipality to get the total rate reduced so it's fare on everyone (as currently everyone will be charged on the highest rate)
not sure how the chairperson can claim its unconstitutional if he means without an individual meter then ya because you can't just assume that 6 people use more the 2 I can compare with one of my neighbors we 4 and they 2 but we use substantially less water (not as an average but actual usage)
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Yes but odds are that more people will use more water.Sure there can be cases where the opposite is true but I would wager 90 percent of the time its likely the majority who use more.I am just trying to figure out how its more constitutional to have someone with 2 people paying the same as someone with 6 when odds are those 6 are using more as opposed to splitting the bill by the number of people.
 
tawdry said:
Yes but odds are that more people will use more water.Sure there can be cases where the opposite is true but I would wager 90 percent of the time its likely the majority who use more.I am just trying to figure out how its more constitutional to have someone with 2 people paying the same as someone with 6 when odds are those 6 are using more as opposed to splitting the bill by the number of people.
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Like i said you can't just assume because they are more people they use more water. Just because the odds say they will doesn't mean they automatically do. Its unconstitutional because you making an assumption (on their usage) not to mention in sectional titles most charges are based on your PQ participation Quota not person quota :) So you could charge more for someone who has a larger unit again - you can end up with 1 person living in a large unit and then 6 people in 1 little unit.

The only fair way to do it is to meter every unit.
 
isie said:
The only fair way to do it is to meter every unit.
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Yup, user pays is an established principle. The Body Corporate had appealed to occupants to use less water, but some people continued to take 20+ minutes showers, and that was pushing us into the penalty category. Owners with tenants knew the meters were coming so they could adjust their contracts. Water usage in the block dropped dramatically.
 
tawdry said:
Hi Guys
So there are 20 apartments in my building yet we only have 1 water meter.
I have 2 people in my unit while at least 2 units have up to 6 people.I suggested that instead of everyone paying the same amount split by unit that we should take in account how many people are living in a unit and split the water that way. The chairperson said that this had been tried in another building and has since been ruled unconstitutional so we couldn't do it.

Anyone know if there is any truth to this suggestion been unconstitutional?Why is it not unconstitutional that I should pay for someone overcrowding there unit.

Anyone know any articles on this topic?
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I would Suggest you keep paying.... it is cheaper that way. Putting a Water meter wont/might not solve your problem. 1. water meters come with extra charges for your account and the body corporate.
2. if your water is not filtered , the sand in the water will quickly damage your meter(extra cost).
3. for a family of 2 you roughly pay around R 600 compared to 300 you normally pay.( i pay roughly 1200 pm for a family of 5) that's around 20-25 kiloliters
4.I think your chairperson is very smart already did the math.

THE BEST SOLUTION IS TO INSTALL 3 water meters
1. the one you already have ---it will monitor the common property water
2. install one meter for all actual apartments
3. install one for your house.-- body corporate will deduct your actuall water usage from the number 2.
 
2nd time this week I come from a site with a photo relating to what’s being discussed in a thread.

so this guy has a leak and refuses to fix it. One bill is also being split among 8 units. So now I’m replacing what he claims is the leak (cost to BC), however it’s clear to see the leak is coming from the inside (not clear on the pic, but clear when inspecting). So after fixing what he claims is the issue then he will have to explain the leak and also fit the bill which he said was the cause.
There after it will most likely also be individual metres with the owner of the leaking unit being the only one against it.

apart from his leak the walls are completely damp and the unit below has huge damp issues in the ceiling and in the walls because of this. He previously had the lady prove that she has no leaks by getting a plumber out. They confirmed no leaks and that it’s coming from above... he still refuses haha. When I wanted to inspect inside his unit he refuses to let us enter.

E7B73B17-93D8-428A-A1DA-452FCF240EED.jpeg
 
Smokey mcpot said:
2nd time this week I come from a site with a photo relating to what’s being discussed in a thread.

so this guy has a leak and refuses to fix it. One bill is also being split among 8 units. So now I’m replacing what he claims is the leak (cost to BC), however it’s clear to see the leak is coming from the inside (not clear on the pic, but clear when inspecting). So after fixing what he claims is the issue then he will have to explain the leak and also fit the bill which he said was the cause.
There after it will most likely also be individual metres with the owner of the leaking unit being the only one against it.

apart from his leak the walls are completely damp and the unit below has huge damp issues in the ceiling and in the walls because of this. He previously had the lady prove that she has no leaks by getting a plumber out. They confirmed no leaks and that it’s coming from above... he still refuses haha. When I wanted to inspect inside his unit he refuses to let us enter.

View attachment 1038542
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He may not refuse entry as per the Act, as long as a reasonable request is made. In fact, even if the leak falls within the section, the BC is responsible to fix it on his behalf and entitled to recover the cost from him.
 
RonSwanson said:
He may not refuse entry as per the Act, as long as a reasonable request is made. In fact, even if the leak falls within the section, the BC is responsible to fix it on his behalf and entitled to recover the cost from him.
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Apparently this guy is a problem and they’re already dealing with a list of issues. He owns 3 units there and all of them are a problem
 
Just a general note on water meters, we've received some advice to change the conduct rules. New rule to be inserted that owners with levies that are outstanding over a certain amount agree to the installation of prepaid water meters, and the cost of the installation to be borne by them. I assume that the portion usually assigned to common property water (based on PQ) would still apply to their bill, but not that ascribed to resident's usage. How feasible would that be?
 
tawdry said:
Hi Guys
So there are 20 apartments in my building yet we only have 1 water meter.
I have 2 people in my unit while at least 2 units have up to 6 people.I suggested that instead of everyone paying the same amount split by unit that we should take in account how many people are living in a unit and split the water that way. The chairperson said that this had been tried in another building and has since been ruled unconstitutional so we couldn't do it.

Anyone know if there is any truth to this suggestion been unconstitutional?Why is it not unconstitutional that I should pay for someone overcrowding there unit.

Anyone know any articles on this topic?
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isie said:
Get individual meters and bill per unit - not sure if this is joburg only but after that you can apply to the municipality to get the total rate reduced so it's fare on everyone (as currently everyone will be charged on the highest rate)
not sure how the chairperson can claim its unconstitutional if he means without an individual meter then ya because you can't just assume that 6 people use more the 2 I can compare with one of my neighbors we 4 and they 2 but we use substantially less water (not as an average but actual usage)
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tawdry said:
Yes but odds are that more people will use more water.Sure there can be cases where the opposite is true but I would wager 90 percent of the time its likely the majority who use more.I am just trying to figure out how its more constitutional to have someone with 2 people paying the same as someone with 6 when odds are those 6 are using more as opposed to splitting the bill by the number of people.
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isie said:
Like i said you can't just assume because they are more people they use more water. Just because the odds say they will doesn't mean they automatically do. Its unconstitutional because you making an assumption (on their usage) not to mention in sectional titles most charges are based on your PQ participation Quota not person quota :) So you could charge more for someone who has a larger unit again - you can end up with 1 person living in a large unit and then 6 people in 1 little unit.

The only fair way to do it is to meter every unit.
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HavocXphere said:
People are way too fast throwing the word unconstitutional out there....
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It's very disingenuous when you delete my entire post, only showing the first line and ignore me giving a fair and just solution -
Geoff.D said:
Ja designed to confuse and impress and justify the "do nothing brigade".
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Maybe if you check what the person said in its entirety in context to what I am replying to instead of looking at one person 1/2 quoting me
- and then claim I am somehow supporting the Do nothing brigade.
 
isie said:
It's very disingenuous when you delete my entire post, only showing the first line and ignore me giving a fair and just solution -
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No because I'm not criticizing your solution or take on the matter. Just pointing out that not everything that is wrong/illegal/against the rules/objectionable is unconstitutional.

Making a reasonable assumption to allocate expenses doesn't quite make the cut for violating any constitutional rights as best as I can tell.

Meter would certainly be better agreed.
 
Hi Guys, just joined mybroadband after discovering this thread. Hoping others can share their thoughts and experiences. I live in a sectional title complex in Cape Town area, about 30 flats. All one bedroom. Recently discovered that installation of sub-meters in each unit compulsory in terms of a city by-law issued in 2018. Supposed to have been completed by 4 Oct last year but not done yet in many blocks in CTN (due to Covid delays I imagine). Every unit in our block will need two sub-meters, because different inlets for toilets and general water. Our annual water and sewerage bills quite small because of size block and flats. Capital outlay for installation meters will be considerable (about 200k) and will be monthly service fee of about R2000 for the block. Capital outlay and installation will be funded by a loan to BC. At this stage not clear if might be further costs (how to get to inlet pipes for each unit's toilets, for eg). But issue has caused me to wonder about the roll out across Cape Town. There must be a huge number of blocks that can't afford this kind of outlay. What are they supposed to do? Esp if it becomes part of check on compliance certificates that plumbers must issue prior to transfer of property. Is the City actually persisting in application this law? Has huge implications for sectional title schemes in poorer communities especially. Might then actually raise constitutional issues after all, if effect of law is that unable to sell your flat because separate water meters not installed in block? Idea of separate water meters great in theory, but not sure that practical, financial and legal implications really thought through.
 
HavocXphere said:
No because I'm not criticizing your solution or take on the matter. Just pointing out that not everything that is wrong/illegal/against the rules/objectionable is unconstitutional.

Making a reasonable assumption to allocate expenses doesn't quite make the cut for violating any constitutional rights as best as I can tell.

Meter would certainly be better agreed.
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we were were trying to figure out what reasons the Chairman of the OP's complex came up with the claim ruling its un constitutional, mine was you cant discriminate based on amount of people , so not against allocating but like I said cant just assume more people more usage ,nor more PQ more usage , hence meter is the best option
 
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