Stop patronising poor Americans

Vox Populi Vox Dei

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Some people on this board really need to read this ;). An interesting read.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jul/19/stop-patronising-poor-americans

There's a narrative that comes up in supposedly progressive communities, especially around election time. It is the suggestion that there are people who "vote against their own interests". Electoral results and polls are examined and the narrative declares that, gosh, some people just don't know what's good for them, because if they did they wouldn't have voted that way. They wouldn't vote for an organisation that's really working against their interests. They wouldn't contribute financially to such a cause because it is bad, wrong or evil.

I see this especially with discussions about people living in poverty. There's a strange duality that seems to occur where on the one hand, people insist that poor communities deserve autonomy, and need to be treated with respect. On the other hand, though, they're saying incredibly patronising things about people who live in poverty, suggesting they don't know their own best interests and are not capable of making informed choices after being presented with information. It's peculiar to see people basically trying to keep the poor in a subordinate position while claiming to advocate for them; "it's for your own good", they say.

Republicans are good at messaging. They communicate clear, simple ideas that appeal to many people. A lot of people like the idea of paying lower taxes, of freezing government spending. A lot of people value gun ownership. A lot of people think that gay people don't deserve civil rights. Republicans promise all of those things. If I was a person who held those values as particularly important, I would probably vote Republican, because they would be promising me exactly what I wanted. They would be promising me things in direct alignment with my interests.

But, some people say, the poor need government benefits and freezing government spending would put a stop to that. So people who vote Republican are shooting themselves in the foot. Except that things are not that simple. We are in a Democratic presidential administration right now, and guess what is being cut? Yes, that's right, social services. Electing a Democrat is no guarantee that social services will be protected.

Here in California, with a Democratic governor, we're having even more severe spending cuts. Some people who voted for Jerry Brown are pretty angry about those cuts, as well they should be. On the other hand, he made no secret of his intentions during the campaign, he made no attempt to hide his plans while preparing the budget. So who voted against which interests there? Brown promised the lesser of a field of evils and now we're reaping it.

I find the idea that people cannot make political decisions if they're poor incredibly offensive. If you're a poor person who votes for a progressive candidate, you've been taught to do the right thing, well done, the narrative goes. If you're a poor person who votes for a conservative candidate, you're voting against your own best interests, which is what happens when we allow people like you to vote; you bad thing, no cookie for you. Nowhere in here is there any room for autonomy, for the decision to personally, of your own volition, make an informed choice about how you participate in the political process.
 
"progressives" just can't grasp why somebody would vote against freebies. Why vote for the candidate who expects you to work and earn a living over the candidate who promises everything even if you sit on your ass all day...

Some people just prefer personal responsibility and the liberty that comes with it rather than giving that up for a suffocating nanny state.
 
It's peculiar to see people basically trying to keep the poor in a subordinate position while claiming to advocate for them; "it's for your own good", they say.

But this is the whole predilection of democratic governance. That is, it doesn’t matter who you are, it’s not possible for you to look after your own interests solely by interacting non-coercively with others.
 
I find the idea that people cannot make political decisions if they're poor incredibly offensive.

Unfortunately a lot of poor people are uneducated, or grow up in an environment that doesn't encourage complex thoughts and ideas and as such they do not fully understand the implications of what they are doing. Whether that's offensive or not, its the truth. The political situation in this country testifies to that.
 
Poverty sits on its a$$ expecting handouts.

Would you prefer it stole from you?

Cause poverty aint going away unless you do something about it. If you completely cut it off from any kind of welfare, then the poverty will come knocking on your door and bring you down with it.
 
Why do people vote against their own interests?

The Republicans' shock victory in the election for the US Senate seat in Massachusetts meant the Democrats lost their supermajority in the Senate. This makes it even harder for the Obama administration to get healthcare reform passed in the US.
Political scientist Dr David Runciman gives his view on why there is often such deep opposition to reforms that appear to be of obvious benefit to voters.
Last year, in a series of "town-hall meetings" across the country, Americans got the chance to debate President Obama's proposed healthcare reforms.
What happened was an explosion of rage and barely suppressed violence.
Polling evidence suggests that the numbers who think the reforms go too far are nearly matched by those who think they do not go far enough.
But it is striking that the people who most dislike the whole idea of healthcare reform - the ones who think it is socialist, godless, a step on the road to a police state - are often the ones it seems designed to help.
In Texas, where barely two-thirds of the population have full health insurance and over a fifth of all children have no cover at all, opposition to the legislation is currently running at 87%.
Anger
Instead, to many of those who lose out under the existing system, reform still seems like the ultimate betrayal.
Why are so many American voters enraged by attempts to change a horribly inefficient system that leaves them with premiums they often cannot afford?
Why are they manning the barricades to defend insurance companies that routinely deny claims and cancel policies?
It might be tempting to put the whole thing down to what the historian Richard Hofstadter back in the 1960s called "the paranoid style" of American politics, in which God, guns and race get mixed into a toxic stew of resentment at anything coming out of Washington.
But that would be a mistake.

Drew Westen argues that stories rather than facts convince voters
If people vote against their own interests, it is not because they do not understand what is in their interest or have not yet had it properly explained to them.
They do it because they resent having their interests decided for them by politicians who think they know best.
There is nothing voters hate more than having things explained to them as though they were idiots.
As the saying goes, in politics, when you are explaining, you are losing. And that makes anything as complex or as messy as healthcare reform a very hard sell.
Stories not facts
In his book The Political Brain, psychologist Drew Westen, an exasperated Democrat, tried to show why the Right often wins the argument even when the Left is confident that it has the facts on its side.
He uses the following exchange from the first presidential debate between Al Gore and George Bush in 2000 to illustrate the perils of trying to explain to voters what will make them better off:
Gore: "Under the governor's plan, if you kept the same fee for service that you have now under Medicare, your premiums would go up by between 18% and 47%, and that is the study of the Congressional plan that he's modelled his proposal on by the Medicare actuaries."
Bush: "Look, this is a man who has great numbers. He talks about numbers.

"I'm beginning to think not only did he invent the internet, but he invented the calculator. It's fuzzy math. It's trying to scare people in the voting booth."
A clear difference in the type of language used, even though Mr Bush, too, went on to talk numbers:
"Under my tax plan, that [Gore] continues to criticize, I set a third -- the federal government should take no more than a third of anybody's check. But I also drop the bottom rate from 15 percent to 10 percent because by far the vast majority of the help goes to the people at the bottom end of the economic ladder.
"If you're a family of four in Massachusetts making $50,000 you get a 50 percent cut in the federal income taxes you pay. It's from 4,000 to about 2,000. Now, the difference in our plans is I want that 2,000 to go to you, and the vice president would like to be spending the 2,000 on your behalf."
Mr Bush won the debate. With Mr. Gore's statistics, the voters just heard a patronising policy wonk, and switched off.
For Mr Westen, stories always trump statistics, which means the politician with the best stories is going to win: "One of the fallacies that politicians often have on the Left is that things are obvious, when they are not obvious.
"Obama's administration made a tremendous mistake by not immediately branding the economic collapse that we had just had as the Republicans' Depression, caused by the Bush administration's ideology of unregulated greed. The result is that now people blame him."
Reverse revolution
Thomas Frank, the author of the best-selling book What's The Matter with Kansas, is an even more exasperated Democrat and he goes further than Mr Westen.
He believes that the voters' preference for emotional engagement over reasonable argument has allowed the Republican Party to blind them to their own real interests.
The Republicans have learnt how to stoke up resentment against the patronising liberal elite, all those do-gooders who assume they know what poor people ought to be thinking.
Right-wing politics has become a vehicle for channelling this popular anger against intellectual snobs. The result is that many of America's poorest citizens have a deep emotional attachment to a party that serves the interests of its richest.

Thomas Frank says that whatever disadvantaged Americans think they are voting for, they get something quite different:
"You vote to strike a blow against elitism and you receive a social order in which wealth is more concentrated than ever before in our life times, workers have been stripped of power, and CEOs are rewarded in a manner that is beyond imagining.
"It's like a French Revolution in reverse in which the workers come pouring down the street screaming more power to the aristocracy."
As Mr Frank sees it, authenticity has replaced economics as the driving force of modern politics. The authentic politicians are the ones who sound like they are speaking from the gut, not the cerebral cortex. Of course, they might be faking it, but it is no joke to say that in contemporary politics, if you can fake sincerity, you have got it made.
And the ultimate sin in modern politics is appearing to take the voters for granted.
This is a culture war but it is not simply being driven by differences over abortion, or religion, or patriotism. And it is not simply Red states vs. Blue states any more. It is a war on the entire political culture, on the arrogance of politicians, on their slipperiness and lack of principle, on their endless deal making and compromises.
And when the politicians say to the people protesting: 'But we're doing this for you', that just makes it worse. In fact, that seems to be what makes them angriest of all.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8474611.stm

A very good read for the educated amongst us.
 
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But it is striking that the people who most dislike the whole idea of healthcare reform - the ones who think it is socialist, godless, a step on the road to a police state - are often the ones it seems designed to help.

Forgive them for thinking a government Ponzi scheme is not the solution to their problems. They're "ignorant".
 
Forgive them for thinking a government Ponzi scheme is not the solution to their problems. They're "ignorant".

Pff, stupid americans.. healing the sick. What a waste of time! Everyone knows that an unhealthy society is more productive ;)
 
Pff, stupid americans.. healing the sick. What a waste of time! Everyone knows that an unhealthy society is more productive ;)

I'm feeling a little flu-ish. I'm gonna get my friends to hold you up at gunpoint for some cash to get Panado. Fair enough?
 
I'm feeling a little flu-ish. I'm gonna get my friends to hold you up at gunpoint for some cash to get Panado. Fair enough?

Luckily we have government healthcare so that wont happen ;)

No need to use violence to get what you need. There are state institutions in place to prevent Panado mobs :D

Take away those institutions and Im sure a poor dying man with no other recourse will do anything to survive.
 
Luckily we have government healthcare so that wont happen ;)

No need to use violence to get what you need. There are state institutions in place to prevent Panado mobs :D

And how do the government institutions get the funding to operate?
 
And how do the government institutions get the funding to operate?

We all share the load of maintaining a healthy, stable and productive society through taxes. If you dont like em, create your own country where taxes magically dont exist :) Im sure it will do well. *cough*

Most of us understand that the higher the social inequality, the higher the instability :)
 
We all share the load of maintaining a healthy, stable and productive society through taxes. If you dont like em, create your own country where taxes magically dont exist :) Im sure it will do well. *cough*

So, by this logic, if I don't like robbery and extortion I should... what? Head for a desert island?

Of course you seem to be implying you're aware that taxation is actually a criminal act, but condone it nonetheless? You also seem to imply that "social inequality" has something to do with taxation. How so?
 
So, by this logic, if I don't like robbery and extortion I should... what? Head for a desert island?

Of course you seem to be implying you're aware that taxation is actually a criminal act, but condone it nonetheless? You also seem to imply that "social inequality" has something to do with taxation. How so?
No, I dont support your extremist view on taxation.

To explain to you what taxation has to do with social inequality is not worth the energy. Its pretty obvious and if I need to explain it to you then you are not ready to have this conversation.
 
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No, I dont support your extremist view on taxation.

To explain to you what taxation has to do with social inequality is not worth the energy.

Okay. So what is your non-extremist view of taxation? Can you justify why you do not consider it criminal or coercive?
 
Okay. So what is your non-extremist view of taxation? Can you justify why you do not consider it criminal or coercive?
First prove that water is not criminal or coercive. If you are going to waste my time, I insist you do it first.

In the mean time, the stupid government is coercing me into renewing my drivers licence. The commie bastards!
 
Would you prefer it stole from you?


Cause poverty aint going away unless you do something about it. If you completely cut it off from any kind of welfare, then the poverty will come knocking on your door and bring you down with it.

That's exactly the patronizing attitude right there. The poor are criminals. IF they don't have a bureaucrat middle man to do it for them, they'll steal it themselves.
 
That's exactly the patronizing attitude right there. The poor are criminals. IF they don't have a bureaucrat middle man to do it for them, they'll steal it themselves.
Poverty breeds crime.
 
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First prove that water is not criminal or coercive. If you are going to waste my time, I insist you do it first.

Water is not sentient so it cannot act so it cannot have intent. See, I'm happy to pander to your question-dodging. Who's wasting time now?
 
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