Such a pathetic argument!!!

[Pietie]

Can no one see that Telkom keeps on coming up with the same rubbish??!!

The pay-per-use model does make sense I suppose, to a certain extent, but as far as I, and most of my colleagues and friends are concerned, we are being ripped off on the pricing.

Here are some undeniable truths:

1. Local bandwidth cost MUCH less than international bandwidth.

2. The exact opposite of the above… international bandwidth is much more expensive that local bandwidth.

Yes, I stated the obvious in reverse above, because it seems to be a point the all the "learned" people, and executives just can`t seem to comprehend, and no one has EVER thought to bring this to the fore...

HOW CAN WE BE BILLED AN AVERAGE OF R75 PER GIG (END USER PRICE) FOR BOTH INTERNATIONAL AND LOCAL BANDWIDTH - THAT IS JUST BLATANT ROBBERY???!!!!! BUT YET THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING.

I would understand to a certain extent if SAIX/Telkom (And Telkom, stop hiding behind and SAIX, and the same goes for you SAIX - you are BOTH the monsters) had created the pay-per-use model and allowed ISP`s to create packages along the likes of 3 Gig International with 30 gig local for say R280 pm even. And then say R345pm for 5gig International and 30 gig local. This would then at least mean that Telkom/SAIX had thought something through for longer than 5 minutes, and have realised that it would never be fair to charge the same for local as what is charged for International access.

Then, this is currently as per information received from SAIX - and this REALLY needs to be exposed!!

If you as an end user obtain a 3 gig account from a SAIX ISP, you will be charged say R230pm. If during the month you had to be upgraded to a 5gig account, you would be charged for the same month at say R345.

No this might sound fine at first, but the hidden problem is that you only get to use 5 gig, but yet your ISP has been FORCED to bill you for 8 gig - now isn`t that great??!!

I have personally confirmed this through the SAIX call centre, as well as through the SAIX account managers.

So - I think, the next time Telkom/SAIX decides to have a meeting somewhere, to defend themselves amongst themselves - perhaps they should hire a hanger somewhere, and get people to go and make statements that actually make sense, and demand some decent answers. With all due respect to those non-Telkom / non-SAIX people that have attended these little functions, it just seems that meeting after meeting is held, with absolutely zero decent outcome.

It just seems SAIX/Telkom is able to evade the issue every time stating that the new model will reduce costs – please would ANY Telkom/SAIX employee show me how they come to that argument – because I have bent, broken, and fixed every possible permutation and I can not see into that argument, I don’t know if anyone else can.

Telkom/SAIX, there are many people and users that might have defended you in the past - but you have lost the plot, and you have absolutely no argument, or leg to stand on - it would be best that you re-think your actions and stop defending yourselves with pathetic arguments!!

Here is a challenge, if anyone has the guts to take it up - Send an eMail to all your SAIX ISP`s, and hear what they have to say, and maybe you could actually take heed on the comments. You will find me on your list, with a VAN’s licence as well, I would be glad to debate this topic with you.

 

[ItalicBold]

As far as I am aware, telkom where still making money when we were paying R300 for a 30gb international acc. It seems any time telkom does something people slowly adjust there expectations of what is actually acceptable. If telkom can still make money off the above then we should not be desiring anything less. Thus your suggestions on per gig bw should factor in the above and be more like:

R10 per gb international and R4 per gb local(if we should be charged for this at all on a per gig basis).

"And then say R345pm for 5gig International and 30 gig local" is just ridiculous in comparison. Its sad that Telkom have adjusted there prices so high that ppl will now actually accept something like this willingly.

 

[ItalicBold]

The fact that web africa could even offer a 30gb at R199 just further highlights how bad the situation is.

 

[jamieb]

telkom.... disaster zone

telkom, you blood sucking swine!! we're out to get you!!

 

[krycor]

i wish it was R10 a gig everyone will move to dsl then.

 

[Pietie]

Fair Pricing

There is one this we all need to realise - and everyone should take this for what it is really worth.

We still not yet have the volume of internet usage in SA to be able to contend our bandwidth infrastructure in the same light as US and UK etc.

In US and UK, and other 1st world countries, there are literally millions of users, we only have like a hundred or so thousand, so we will still be more expensive that the rest of the world - and we should all be grown up enough to understand that, so low figures like R3 per gig might just still not be possible - maybe as more users come on board.
Once again, the argument could be that with the new pricing, new users will be inhibited, so we now have the chicken or egg scenario.

So, the only real way to move ahead is to find a compromise, and we also have to take part in that compromise.

If I were to make a suggestion, as a business owner as well, knowing that providing services costs money, not only directly but indirectly (staff, water & Lights, etc, etc) I would suggest the following:
R55 per gig for International access (end User excl VAT)
R20 per gig for National/Local access (end User excl VAT)

I believe that while the above is more expensive than what we are all keen to pay, it is still reasonably fair, and is at least sustainable for the network, and will also still promote growth - with the additional growth, further price reductions could become possible.

I hope I don’t sound like the enemy in this post - but after also ranting and raving myself, I thought lets me be sensible and base my thoughts on where we as SA internet users have come from, and where we hope to be in the next year, and how we hope to get there - it would be far better for all of us to roll with the punches and help build the infrastructure.

In total opposite to the above - TELKOM... YOU ARE GOING AROUND THINGSS THE WRONG WAY... CONTINUE THE WAY YOU ARE AND YOU WILL ONLY BE MET WITH MORE FRUSTRATION, ANGER AND RIDICULE!! LISTEN TO THE USERS - THEY DO KNOW MORE THAN YOU DO!!

 

[Peter_J]

We still not yet have the volume of internet usage in SA to be able to contend our bandwidth infrastructure in the same light as US and UK etc.
....
R55 per gig for International access (end User excl VAT)

Pietie, with respect, I think that you are just quite wrong here. I had a go at Telkom's international bandwidth costs here:

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=30839

In my opinion, even at R7-R10/Gb, they would be making huge profits. Your compromise is anything but fair - it is IMHO ridiculous.

The other major point as far as I can ascertain, is that usage based price structures are just artificial mechanisms to generate profits, as everything ( outside of Telkom! ) is paid for by line speed ( ie: you pay $X for a 1024k link, NOT for Y Gb ). So caps are a nonsense - if the infrastructure is there, let us use it, not try to rip us off by counting bytes.

I have had off-the-record confirmations from staff at another first-tier ISP that the cost of an uncapped 512k link, to them, is in the region of R250.

 

[RVFmal]

In US and UK, and other 1st world countries, there are literally millions of users, we only have like a hundred or so thousand, so we will still be more expensive that the rest of the world - and we should all be grown up enough to understand that, so low figures like R3 per gig might just still not be possible - maybe as more users come on board.
Once again, the argument could be that with the new pricing, new users will be inhibited, so we now have the chicken or egg scenario.

So what you are saying is we can expect the prices to remain high whilst there are so few users and that as the consumer base grows we can expect tangible drops in the prices?

This seems that same argument that was rolled out when cellphones first became available in this country and even though we have millions of users in the is country we have yet to see the so-called dramatic drop in prices that was stipulated as the user base grows.

There will always be some excuse to keep prices high, no matter what industry is involved. Consumers in this country are too lazy and ill informed to force them to do anything about it and the slow response by government in areas that thye regulate due to their own interests just aggravates the situation.

 

[stoke]

...There will always be some excuse to keep prices high, no matter what industry is involved. Consumers in this country are too lazy and ill informed to force them to do anything about it and the slow response by government in areas that thye regulate due to their own interests just aggravates the situation.

Exakkery.
Our job here is to inform them.
One at a time.
They will learn, they will notice, they will become informed, they will begin to demand what they deserve.
One step at a time.

 

[playkiller no.2]

Dam you Telkom,dam you mother,your father and everyone in blood sucking company.

 

[Antonio]

In US and UK, and other 1st world countries, there are literally millions of users, we only have like a hundred or so thousand, so we will still be more expensive that the rest of the world - and we should all be grown up enough to understand that, so low figures like R3 per gig might just still not be possible - maybe as more users come on board.

Well, in the USA and UK the number of cars per capita is probably 10 times higher than here, yet you don't see the petrol selling for R600.00 per litre.

I simply don't buy that argument, we'll never know how cheap (or how expensive) the broadband Internet access in South Africa can be unless there's REAL competition.

 

[Pietie]

Pietie, with respect, I think that you are just quite wrong here. I had a go at Telkom's international bandwidth costs here:

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=30839

In my opinion, even at R7-R10/Gb, they would be making huge profits. Your compromise is anything but fair - it is IMHO ridiculous.
....

.

OK - this point is well made - and I do agree - I did not take the time to go and calculate costs on International bandwidth, but what I stated is what I would still deem fair to pay - maybe this too is selfish in the sense that not everyone would agree.

The main point of my argument is that some of the statements made by people are ridiculous, almost equal to how stupid Telkom is - we have to also realise that there are base line costs, as well as company expenses in delivering the services - so all this needs to be kept in mind.

The secondary point is that I do agree with everyone that we are being ripped off, and what I truly wish is that Telkom would realise that the biggest part of their THEFT is the fact that they are billing the same for Local bandwidth as what they are charging for International - that is BULLS..T!!!

Lastly, somewhere deep inside I wish that just a LITTLE part of Telkom's action is to impose some sort of management of the network - I am not entirely sure that the capacity exists to sustain the full 512k or even 1024k usage of every user, and I would be concerned as to whether the network would in fact handle a free for all - I doubt this was in their thought pattern, but I think it would have been on mine. Now, I don't know if anyone here has any "off the record" network stats on Telkom’s infrastructure, and what the graphs looked like before this change, but I am sure it didn’t look good.

We have a presence in Indianapolis USA, which is really cool because we get to really use bandwidth there, and we know what is available at what price - but at the same time it is a real bitch because we also get to see how much we lack in SA and what we are expected to pay. Our partner has an 8 Meg pipe with 25 static public IP's (in his house) which costs $132 per month, which is even more that usual because there are other services bundled with it.

I wish Telkom would just listen to us little ones... like I said before, I KNOW WE KNOW BETTER

 

[Pietie]

Compitition

yes - competition is the key that will drive prices down - but for that we need to fight with Dep of Communications - I will be bold enough to say that I doubt that ICASA has the know-how or the ability to even comprehend on how to promote competition, and neither does Dep of Communications, and plus it seems they are all to scared. Also, let us not forget who still has a major chunk of shares in Telkom... Government... so why would they attack their income?

The biggest problem with getting competition for Telkom is money - who has the type of financial backing to lay cable to every house, building and corner.

OK - wireless... lets count how many wireless companies have come and gone... lets count how many of the existing ones actually provide a stable and reliable service we will be REALLY proud to use.

The only last alternative is for the Dep of Communications to allow any ISP to land his own International bandwidth via cable or satellite (up and down), and self provide the international bandwidth, and just rent local space from.... Telkom... as no one else has sufficient cable in the ground.

 

[Nick333]

The main point of my argument is that some of the statements made by people are ridiculous, almost equal to how stupid Telkom is - we have to also realise that there are base line costs, as well as company expenses in delivering the services - so all this needs to be kept in mind.

Petie have you any idea what sort of profit margins Telkom are making ? Its *&%^ ing billions man ! But instead of reinvesting they up their prices to increase their profits the greedy bastards. What sort of business model is that?
Let me tell you a greedy and evil one. Telkom is being driven by greedy american investors whos orders are to rape the economy before the SNO comes in. Dont believe? Go to hellkoms facts and info section and read the Quotes from Telkom and Industry players.

 

[Geek_wannabe]

I think here we are also missing the point that telkom not only makes money from internet. in fact, the amount is puny in compared with its other sects. It makes its money from telephone calls which people make to each other.

So, the point is that they can lower their internet charges without losing practically any profit, because, if they lower it, more people will sign up, meaning that that which they have lost because of lower prices will be compensated by more user paying lower prices. understand?

 

[plugger123]

instead of removing the duck from the pond, Telkom is removing the pond from the duck. Removing the pond from the Duck is much more work than removing the Duck from the pond...

 

[Nick333]

I think here we are also missing the point that telkom not only makes money from internet. in fact, the amount is puny in compared with its other sects. It makes its money from telephone calls which people make to each other.

So, the point is that they can lower their internet charges without losing practically any profit, because, if they lower it, more people will sign up, meaning that that which they have lost because of lower prices will be compensated by more user paying lower prices. understand?

Actually Telkom makes most of thier profit from Broadband internet i.e Diginet connections, adsl et al also dont forget that vodacom and mtn have to connect to Telkoms network at every 3G enabled base station. And then of course they own a huge stake in Vodacom which is a nice litlle earner .

Youre essentially right except that for Telkom more adsl customers equals having to supply more bandwidth, which means syphoning it from other Broadband services or , more practically , investing in more international bandwidth.

The problem is that if Telkom spends money on infrastructure it means less money for greedy shareholders who dont have faith in the future of South Africa. All they want is to suck as much money out of our economy as possible before it collapses. The irony is that if it does they will have been the major contributing factor.

This is what happens when you sell off major State (i.e belonging to the people of SOuth Africa) owned assets to the highest bidder , especially the greedy American s that we did.

The really sad thing is that our own Government doesnt seem to mind being associated with those bastards.

 

[Roman4604]

Actually Telkom makes most of thier profit from Broadband internet i.e Diginet connections, adsl et al also dont forget that vodacom and mtn have to connect to Telkoms network at every 3G enabled base station. And then of course they own a huge stake in Vodacom which is a nice litlle earner .

According to Telkom's latest interrum results for fixed line services (i.e. excludes Vodacom) the revenues are as follows;

Subscriptions & connections.......R 2084 mil [13%]....Tel line rentals, dont think ADSL line rentals are included?
Traffic....................................R 8936 mil [57%]....Call minutes, dont think data traffic is included?
Interconnection........................R 844 mil [5%]......Income for call termination, mainly cell I think
Data......................................R 3230 mil [21%]....All ADSL, Diginet, Megaline, ATM etc.
Directories & other....................R 593 mil [4%]......Yellow pages ???

If my assumption about all data related revenue being in the 'data' figure & assuming ADSL is say 50% of all data revenue, then income from ADSL only represents ~ 10% of revenue. Throw Vodacom (31% of consolidated revenue) into the pot and it reduces further ... bottom line ADSL is NOT a big portion of income.

 

[pimal3]

So It(666) introduced the per gig payment to up the ADSL proportion to the profits significantly. Only reason I can see why is that Telkom realises that Traffic profit is reducing world-wide and even here in SA and It(666) must act smartly to protect Its(666) obscene profits