Tax rip off- The Joule!

SilverNodashi

Expert Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
3,340
Reaction score
49
Location
Johannesburg, South Africa
I got this article on another forum that I regularly visit and thought I'd share it with you:



Author- Rob Handfield-Jones

Enjoy:


Optimal Energy (the developers of the Joule electric car) is one of those problematic entities that requires far more words to dissect than the average reader is prepared to wade through. This probably explains the lack of robust critique of the Joule, and the corresponding dearth of hard answers from Optimal Energy.

I initially contemplated writing this piece about three weeks ago when I noticed that Optimal Energy CEO, Kobus Meiring, was having a public hand-wringing session about where on earth the R6.6 billion needed to produce the Joule was going to come from. A year ago, the figure was R5.5 billion, so the amount has crept up by an extra billion or so, at an annual rate of increase of 17% versus the 4% of inflation. Let’s not fall into Meiring’s trap of blithely bandying huge numbers around - Optimal Energy is playing in the financial stratosphere. R6 billion, for clarification, represents the approximate market capitalisation of gas and welding equipment giant Afrox!

perspective

Perhaps this brings into perspective my warning of a year ago that the Joule would become a taxpayer-funded bottomless pit if the state-owned Industrial Development Corporation, which has now provided almost R200 million of Optimal Energy’s seed capital, didn’t step in and insist that the company unveil a viable business plan or, failing that, pull the plug before too much cash vanishes with no hope of a return. Meiring has now said that he believes “...it would be good...” if at least 17% of the R6.5 Bn came from government. Pardon? A year ago, Meiring told Carte Blanche that Optimal Energy had private sector backers, but declined to name them. However, he’s now looking for private sector backers and wants government to fill in the blanks. So which is it? Did Optimal Energy have private sector backers a year ago or not?

With R200 000 000 of taxpayers’ money in its back pocket, Optimal Energy is, to all intents and purposes, a state-owned enterprise, and this kind of evasiveness is just not good enough. It’s time for Meiring to play open cards about just how the company is structured and financed, and what the future holds.

In addition, if Meiring thinks government is actually able to fund Optimal Energy to the tune of 17% of the R6.6 billion, he is in for one helluva shock. The government doesn’t have a spare billion Rand for mission-critical stuff like Eskom, much less for a speculative pipe-dream like the Joule. Indeed, it would be suicidal for government to throw ten figures at private enterprise after just having brushed off the public servants’ pay demands with cries of “no money!”. I’m sure one Z. Vavi would have a thing or two to say about that. I’m thus curious to know from Meiring why he thinks “it would be good” for government to fund his company. My own company has saved far more environmental emissions than the Joule so far, without any expectation of a government bankroll. It’s called entrepreneurship! If your business model doesn’t work, Mr Meiring, then cut your losses. The R200 million of government money that Optimal Energy has already got is disturbing enough. But given the massive risks facing the Joule, the thought of it bagging another billion-odd is terrifying.

visionary

But I digress, because, despite the aforegoing, Men’s Health magazine has somehow contrived to proclaim Kobus Meiring the Men’s Health 2010 Visionary of the Year, clearly demonstrating that the magazine doesn’t grasp the key attribute of ‘vision’, which is that it requires hindsight to recognise, not to mention that vision generally results in acclaim from one’s peers and/or substantial profit. The electric car has been around for a couple of decades already, so how does borrowing R200m from government to build one make Meiring a ‘visionary’? (Gordon Murray and his T.25, anyone?) The Mens Health ‘accolade’ is an astonishing absurdity, and the Optimal Energy press release crowing over the award even more so.

Meiring’s acceptance speech quote in the press release begins: “Without the support of our Government...”. Exactly - without government funding, the Joule would still be a doodle on a serviette, and Meiring would be doing something other than trying to persuade the motoring press that the R300 000–plus Joule will sell more units a month in South Africa than Toyota’s Yaris. I kid you not, that’s what Optimal Energy predicts – 10 000 sales a year, or 833 a month, in South Africa. (Last month the Yaris sold 581 units.)

ballooning

Meanwhile, the Joule’s production budget is ballooning, and the manufacturing schedule has slipped from 2010 to 2013, which is alarming for a car first unveiled in 2007. In other words, never mind whether the Joule can actually be built and compete against what will soon be available from other manufacturers, the question is whether it will achieve mass production and profitability before the design becomes obsolete.

The Joule is good for one thing only: a parliamentary enquiry into the hazards of government funding motor manufacturer startups or any other businesses. This is particularly relevant at a time when the established SA motor manufacturers, which employ over 100 000 people and are run as leanly as is ever likely to be possible, are seriously concerned about surviving the next decade.

Kobus Meiring and Optimal Energy cannot expect South Africans to be satisfied with PR fluff. They need to start answering the hard questions which relate to economics, market share, production, distribution, financing, and profitability. It’s time for Meiring tell the SA taxpayers why he needs yet more of their money to fund his business venture, what chances there are of them getting it back, and over what time frame. In other words, Mr Meiring: put your business plan on the table, or get your hands out of our pockets.



Source: http://www.airgunsports.co.za/showthread.php/1638-Tax-rip-off-The-Joule!
 
I thought the Joule was pretty much ready to be released already...?
 
This seems to be the current fashion. Since millions of taxpayer bucks into a project & then can it halfway thus guaranteeing zero return. (PBR, Joule, Gauteng Motorsport Corp etc)
 
The Joule looks old and dated already and it hasn't even been released yet.
 
Never mind the funds he is asking for, who on earth gave him the idea that an electric car with a R300k price tag will do well in SA? Common, that's like expecting Americans to fall in love with a 1.6 hatchback and rush out to buy one! It just aint gonna happen.
 
Never mind the funds he is asking for, who on earth gave him the idea that an electric car with a R300k price tag will do well in SA? Common, that's like expecting Americans to fall in love with a 1.6 hatchback and rush out to buy one! It just aint gonna happen.

From what I heard a while back (like 3 yrs ago), the SA market is but a small target of theirs. I think they will be aiming mostly for export. I'd still like one.
 
From what I heard a while back (like 3 yrs ago), the SA market is but a small target of theirs. I think they will be aiming mostly for export. I'd still like one.

I suppose that is the way to go, but according to the quoted article they talk about the SA market only.
I think a cost comparison would probably see a Joule working out cheaper that petrol / diesel for fuel costs, but when those batteries need replacing it could tip the scales substantially. IMHO electric cars are not yet a viable economical option for the average South African, especially not at that kind of price tag. A nice to have, or as a "I'm doing my bit", and if you are financially able, I suppose it has a purpose, but more than that I fail to see the use for it in the SA market at that price tag + maintenance costs.
 
From what I heard a while back (like 3 yrs ago), the SA market is but a small target of theirs. I think they will be aiming mostly for export. I'd still like one.

And I also understand the price includes future battery replacement (please correct me if wrong).
 
I suppose that is the way to go, but according to the quoted article they talk about the SA market only.
I think a cost comparison would probably see a Joule working out cheaper that petrol / diesel for fuel costs, but when those batteries need replacing it could tip the scales substantially. IMHO electric cars are not yet a viable economical option for the average South African, especially not at that kind of price tag. A nice to have, or as a "I'm doing my bit", and if you are financially able, I suppose it has a purpose, but more than that I fail to see the use for it in the SA market at that price tag + maintenance costs.

Precisely. You've isolated their target market perfectly. Those with a little cash to spare on a car that comes with massive R&D costs, in return for the feel good factor of leaving a smaller emissions footprint and boosting SA technology. From what I heard them say when they started out, they never intended on being the cheapest car around. That would have been crazy to get right with the R&D costs of new technology. They're not just throwing a mass produced petrol engine from china into a car. People just assume they should be aiming for the cheap market because it's being designed and built here in SA.

That's not to say a more pricy car won't take off. BMW / Audi / Merc anyone?

Let's wait and see how it performs against its competitors. From what i've read, the Volt has like half the range (although this may have changed). And to put costs into perspective... how much do you think GM is sinking into the Volt?
 
And I also understand the price includes future battery replacement (please correct me if wrong).

I heard something like that too... the battery is taken care of for the life of the car. (I could also be wrong).
 
I bet he is also a climate change denialist.

Not sure what climate denialism has to do with this? The article is merely questioning the financial viability of a project like this in South Africa. I'm not sure how the Joule is going to compete with mass market EVs like the Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi iMiev that will be available for sale a good year or two before the Joule even hits showroom floors.
 
Precisely. You've isolated their target market perfectly. Those with a little cash to spare on a car that comes with massive R&D costs, in return for the feel good factor of leaving a smaller emissions footprint and boosting SA technology. From what I heard them say when they started out, they never intended on being the cheapest car around. That would have been crazy to get right with the R&D costs of new technology. They're not just throwing a mass produced petrol engine from china into a car. People just assume they should be aiming for the cheap market because it's being designed and built here in SA.

That's not to say a more pricy car won't take off. BMW / Audi / Merc anyone?

Let's wait and see how it performs against its competitors. From what i've read, the Volt has like half the range (although this may have changed). And to put costs into perspective... how much do you think GM is sinking into the Volt?

Makes sense looking at it like that, but then the question begs why the writer of that article is making a sales comparison with a Yaris. Surely the people with a little extra floating about are not buying Yarises, please tell me it's not so!

As for the pricey cars, yes there is a market for them, but also remember that often the expensive cars are bought for either the power/speed, luxury and the bells and whistles that go with it. A tough market to compete with, but doable I suppose. As you say, wait and see is the best option, first they must actually produce it before they can sell it. :)

If my memory serves, I recall from earlier articles you would have options for the battery, either outright purchase with the car, or a lease option for the batteries, paying R X / month, with then "free" replacement. That said, it was some time ago I read that so a bit sketchy.
 
ELECTRIC CARS ARE NOT THE FUTURE!!

When will people realise that? Not even electric hybrids work. You can get better fuel economy from a 2-liter diesel than from a Prius or CR-Z, let alone that the latest diesels fart out less CO2 than either of these electric hybrids? Hydrogen, anyone?
 
Not sure what climate denialism has to do with this? The article is merely questioning the financial viability of a project like this in South Africa. I'm not sure how the Joule is going to compete with mass market EVs like the Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi iMiev that will be available for sale a good year or two before the Joule even hits showroom floors.

No, there are a lot of comments that suggest that the writer is more interested in sabotaging the idea then making a constructive argument.

FYI the Prius costs over R300k and there is a market for it so yes, there is a market for the Jule. Perhaps not competing with the Yaris but it has its place.
Is it being funded by the taxpayer ? We i suppose it is but we pay for so may things.... how about we spend it on something that could actually end up begin a real good thing for the country ?

No one has come up with an affordable, viable "green" car... how great would it be if we could ?

Read between the lines of what the writer is saying... he thinks going green is a waste of time and money and he thinks that the government loves to waste our time and money.

I see this project as a government FUNDED project that is increasing the science and technology opportunities in this country and paving the way for a cleaner and better future.
 
ELECTRIC CARS ARE NOT THE FUTURE!!

When will people realise that? Not even electric hybrids work. You can get better fuel economy from a 2-liter diesel than from a Prius or CR-Z, let alone that the latest diesels fart out less CO2 than either of these electric hybrids? Hydrogen, anyone?

How do we know that ? without research and development we will wont know.

I can see you have been reading a lot things you don't understand... please post the proof that a Prius has a worse economy than a 2l Diesel. What you meant to say is that the Prius has a much bigger carbon footprint than most cars because of the batteries.

Hybrids are great because they always have a backup plan, they are very expensive but with every new hybrid they make they learn a bit more and make it a bit better.
 
ELECTRIC CARS ARE NOT THE FUTURE!!

When will people realise that? Not even electric hybrids work. You can get better fuel economy from a 2-liter diesel than from a Prius or CR-Z, let alone that the latest diesels fart out less CO2 than either of these electric hybrids? Hydrogen, anyone?

Well of course hybrids area crap idea (in my opinion). The electric has to lug the weight of the petrol engine around when it's working... and the petrol engine has to lug the weight of the electric around when it's working.

Cars like the joule are pure electric... far lighter load to carry, not to mention simpler production with a single power unit.

I think ur missing out on the point that once renewable (or relatively clean in the case of nuclear) energy becomes the norm (more wind farms, large scale solar projects, nuclear reactors, my house fitted with both wind and solar etc etc), then the use of pure electric vehicles are going to be FAR better than petrol.

On the note of efficiency... you do realise that even now, electric cars are far more efficient if you break it down into energy usage (Internal combustion engines range from around 30% for petrol to 40% for diesel, while electric motors are around 80% - 90%). The energy wasted from burning fuel in your car engine is phenomenal. Also, electric motors have full torque from 0km/h.

The difference is that the size batteries that are practical equate to a smaller amount of petrol than you can fit in a standard petrol tank. Go half your petrol tank size, and lets talk again. Most people compare 1 tank of petrol to 1 battery... not a fair comparison. They should compare the KWh of petrol energy to the KWh in a battery.
 
ELECTRIC CARS ARE NOT THE FUTURE!!

When will people realise that? Not even electric hybrids work. You can get better fuel economy from a 2-liter diesel than from a Prius

Nope.

the latest diesels fart out less CO2 than either of these electric hybrids?

Nope.

Hydrogen, anyone?

Where does the hydrogen come from? Storing it is a major pain in the ass too.
 
No, there are a lot of comments that suggest that the writer is more interested in sabotaging the idea then making a constructive argument.

FYI the Prius costs over R300k and there is a market for it so yes, there is a market for the Jule. Perhaps not competing with the Yaris but it has its place.
Is it being funded by the taxpayer ? We i suppose it is but we pay for so may things.... how about we spend it on something that could actually end up begin a real good thing for the country ?

No one has come up with an affordable, viable "green" car... how great would it be if we could ?

Read between the lines of what the writer is saying... he thinks going green is a waste of time and money and he thinks that the government loves to waste our time and money.

I see this project as a government FUNDED project that is increasing the science and technology opportunities in this country and paving the way for a cleaner and better future.

How "green" are we talking here? Zero tailpipe emissions? Zero wells-to-wheels emissions? There are some relatively "green" cost-effictive options out there like Twinair 500s, etc.
 
What happens to all the discarded batteries that have to be replaced every 2 years?

...and the plants who manufacture said batteries rotate staff every 2 weeks to avoid Lead poisoning. I've worked at one.
 
Top
Sign up to the MyBroadband newsletter
X