Testing Top-Down Causation

[Phronesis]

On the Reality of Top-Down Causation

Project Summary

Complex systems such as the human brain are built up out of basic particles such as electrons and protons, which interact with each other through the electromagnetic force. It is this force that determines what happens at the micro-level. How then can there be room -- a causal opening -- for the human mind to operate as a viable entity in its own right, enabling us to think and plan and act, when all the workings of the brain are already determined by micro-level interactions?
A proposal many have made is that there is top-down action in the hierarchy of complexity: just as electrons can act on the brain and influence the mind, so equally the mind can act, through the brain, on the micro-components of the body, in effect telling them what to do (as when you move your arm by activating muscle tissue). But many scientists are skeptical about this, regarding it as unsubstantiated philosophical speculation. The aim of this project, building on previous work by this research team, is to change this proposal from philosophy to science. It will do so by proposing and then carrying out experiments to show that top down action does indeed take place at the level of microbiology, and hence is prevalent in all biology. If these experiments succeed, this will be a fundamental contribution to the understanding of causation in the human body and mind.

George F. R. Ellis (Professor of Applied Mathematics, Professor Emeritus, Mathematics Department, University of Cape) is involved.

Interesting article:
Top-Down Causation by Information Control:
From a Philosophical Problem to a Scientific Research Program

Abstract. It has been claimed that different types of causes must be considered in biological systems, including top-down as well as same-level and bottom-up causation, thus enabling the top levels to be causally efficacious in their own right. To clarify this issue, important distinctions between information and signs are introduced here and the concepts of information control and functional equivalence classes in those systems are rigorously defined and used to characterise when top down causation by feedback control happens, in a way that is testable. The causally significant elements we consider are equivalence classes of lower level processes, realised in biological systems through different operations having the same outcome within the context of information control and networks.

Mmm, a research program geared towards testing the possibility of top-down causation in human cognition.

 

[Geriatrix]

Results should be interesting.
But why are you surprised that Stars are funding this research?

http://www.ctnsstars.org/overview/

Asking new questions of ultimate reality

The goal of STARS is to sponsor research by small teams of scientists and humanities scholars on the ways science, in light of philosophical and theological reflection, points towards the nature, character and meaning of ultimate reality. Priority is given to young scientists with outstanding potential who are relatively new to interdisciplinary research. Admission to preparatory conferences and the awarding of STARS research grants is on a highly competitive basis.

NOTE: All grants have been awarded. This information is for press or archival purposes until the teams announce the results of their research.

STARS builds upon the twenty-five year track record of the Center for Theology and the Natural Sciences, CTNS. In CTNS' most recent program, Science and the Spiritual Quest, SSQ, over 120 distinguished scientists from the major world religions lectured in public conferences from Boston to Bangalore, describing the many ways in which science serves for them as a path to spirituality.

And in the Center for Theology
http://www.ctns.org/

The central theological focus is on Christian theology, ethics and spirituality, with additional attention to the theological issues arising from the engagement between the sciences and world religions.

Seems like they want to prove the Soul and free will with science.
But hey if they can do that, awesome. It'll certainly change a view opinions I wager. But then they'll have to prove Christianity is right and no other religion. Not sure how they'll do that with science.

 

[Phronesis]

I am not surprised. Intrigued. I think the grant for this particular research project was endorsed by Paul Davies of the Arizona State University.
Saying they "want to prove the Soul and free will with science" is a bit of a stretch though.

 

[Geriatrix]

Saying they "want to prove the Soul and free will with science" is a bit of a stretch though.

How so? What would a mind acting independently of material processes and physical causation be if not a soul? Or am I missing something?

 

[Phronesis]

Did they say the mind can act independently of material processes? I am not sure if this is an approach to test dualism or panpsychism or a form of materialism that incorporates minds, if such a thing exists).

 

[Geriatrix]

How then can there be room -- a causal opening -- for the human mind to operate as a viable entity in its own right, enabling us to think and plan and act, when all the workings of the brain are already determined by micro-level interactions?

How would a "mind" influence micro-level interactions like electrons if it was not independent?

What do you think they're trying to prove?

 

[Phronesis]

How would a "mind" influence micro-level interactions like electrons if it was not independent?

Perhaps a mind would only exist when a certain arrangement of material particles exist? When that arrangement of particles exist and constitutes a mind, then it will be able to have an effect on the particles it is made up of. In that way the mind is seprate from the particles it is made up of but still dependent on it? A soul can be argued to be something that exists without the need of material particles and can interact with the mind? Hence not scientifically testable, for now anyway?

What do you think they're trying to prove?

I think they are testing a hypothesis. Whether that proves anything remains to be seen I guess.

 

[Geriatrix]

Perhaps a mind would only exist when a certain arrangement of material particles exist? When that arrangement of particles exist and constitutes a mind, then it will be able to have an effect on the particles it is made up of. In that way the mind is seprate from the particles it is made up of but still dependent on it? A soul can be argued to be something that exists without the need of material particles and can interact with the mind? Hence not scientifically testable, for now anyway?

Kinda like a feedback loop then. Maybe. But in that case it wouldn't be an "viable entity in its own right". At least not in my mind.

It would still be changed on a macro level by those micro-level interactions, even if those micro-level interactions are somehow changed by macro-level interactions. It would still be in a determinate system. Not an independent entity in its own right.

I think they are testing a hypothesis. Whether that proves anything remains to be seen I guess.

I'd like to see the results of their research too. Could prove quite enlightening.

 

[Phronesis]

World renowned cosmologist to speak at NMMU

14 October 2009

World renowned cosmologist, mathematician and author from the University of Cape Town Prof George Ellis will present a public lecture on the nature of causation in complex systems on Monday, 26 October 2009 at 18:30 in the Conference Centre Theatre at the North Campus of Nelson Mandela Metropolitan University.

Prof Ellis is an A1 graded scientist with the NRF, a Fellow of the Royal Society of South Africa, and has worked with many of the world's leading cosmologists, including Stephen Hawking.

In the lecture he will examine and illustrate, with real-world examples, different classes of top-down causation as a reliable understanding of the nature of causation is the core feature of science.

People interested in attending the lecture can contact Christa Esterhuizen on 041-5042310 by 21 October 2009.

For those interested in top-down causation.

Interesting article:
ON THE NATURE OF CAUSATION IN COMPLEX SYSTEMS
"The nature of causation is a core issue for science."

Would fundamentalists say this kind of research is methodologically unscientific? Skyhooks not cranes you IDiots etc...