Testosterone treatment

[throwawaysorry]

Hi Guys,

Brief background - I have been suffering with extreme anxiety and depression for many many years. I have been on anti depressants as well as ritalin+ concerta to also TRY and assist with the lack of concentration I have for as long as I can remember, I have coasted through life with out every feeling excited / motivated, and just try go through the motions and keep anxiety under control (lately this has been impossible). I have been seeing a therapist which mildly improved things but nothing substantial.

I have battled with weight issues despite eating a lot less (in my opinion) and always going under macros (I have being weighing food to try lose weight for a long time as well), exercise and all the usual. Honestly, If it's out there, I have tried it. The last thing I am now trying to do is meditation, doesn't seem to be working either but hey, its still early days.

In my absolute desperation and trying to self diagnose, I came across symptoms of low testosterone + high estrogen. Well, all of the mental health + physical issues I have been experiencing are pretty much direct results of this. I decided to go to pathcare and get bloodwork done. From what I see, I do indeed have low testosterone and high estrogen.

Does anyone know doctors / clinics that would at least look at the results with an open mind and not blanket it off to mental issues? The more I read up on this, the more I see Doctors have just not been trained in this and they almost never even consider this as an option, especially in a young (early 30's) male candidate.

This is the last thing I would have ever wanted, and it really does seem to be a last resort for me. I am struggling to find much online for local (CPT) endocrinologist's that might be able to assist. I found one guy that seems to quote close to 6k just for a single consultation - Honestly at this stage I will go there, but maybe someone else knows of another option that is lighter on the wallet, or if anyone has any experience in this treatment and feedback, I would really appreciate it.

 

[bixt]

I was in the same bandwagon....honestly its simply easier off running a 10 week self trial.

Purchase a vial of PGW brand Testosterone Cypionate, and inject 200mg a week, divided into every 3.5day shots. Inject subcutaneously into fat using an insulin needle\syringe (Dischem, brand is BD Microfine) which is tiny, thin and painless.

If after 4 weeks or so your libido rockets, ED is improved, fat melts, energy comes back etc you can put more effort into finding a doctor as you are confident you know where your issue lies.

Im going to probably get slammed for the above, but honestly there is no other easy and cheap option. Total cost will be around R400 for the Test and R50 for the syringes.

I still continue the above protocol without a doc for now as I feel more awesome than at 17! In the long run a knowledgeable doc who is on TRT himself is a must as various blood markers need to be monitored.

There is a group called "TRT and Hormone Optimization" on facebook and out of all the forums and groups, this is the one to join and get further info.

 

[maumau]

Dr Sundeep Ruder Fourways

Dr S Ruder center for medical excellence

In CT?

 

[throwawaysorry]

Thanks for the responses. @bixt, I am very scared of going down the route of self medicating. I'm assuming what you are suggesting is not legal? Honestly, its not that I have an issue with going that route, its that I worry I would screw it up and get doses etc wrong.

From what I understand, its a case of doctors not being educated on the science behind this, but there are a handful out there that are and I want to hopefully find one of those. If I can't I might just have to go the way you suggested, it does feel like the last resort at this point, life really isn't worth continuing if its going to be another 40 + years of feeling this way.

 

[bixt]

Its not hard to screw up the dose. Some start with 100mg a week, and keep increasing every 6 weeks in 20mg increments till symptoms resolve. I would say most find 200mg per week the sweet spot IMO. Therefore cut to the chase.

End of the day, people on "roids" run 8 week testosterone cycles starting at 500mg to grams per week, with other added compounds. There are no issues with "too high a dose" for such people. Just using this as a comparison of how an 8 week run at 200mg a week is very conservative.

Anyway, you need to join T Nation forums and probably won't even need to post, there are 1000s of such questions and long threads with answers. Use only threads from the past year or so, the older ones contain much misinformation such as the necessity of using AI's (aromatase inhibitors, to decrease estrogen).

 

[Naks]

Before you start medicating, I would advise you to get a full flora analysis done - check out http://www.synexagroup.com/

You would be surprised at how many illnesses/conditions have gut flora imbalance as an underlying cause.

And I would also advise you to try some CBD oil, or even weed.

 

[throwawaysorry]

Thanks @Naks I will take a look at the link you suggested. I have tried CBD oil and it did not help me. Perhaps a very temporary relief but it did not cure the root cause at all.

 

[Gozado]

I have tried CBD oil and it did not help me. Perhaps a very temporary relief but it did not cure the root cause at all.

Could you perhaps elaborate on this? I re-read your first post, where it seemed to me that you described the symptoms from which you suffer but not, in fact, the cause. Have I missed something there, and/or do you actually know what the cause of your distress is?

 

[TheMightyQuin]

I was in the same bandwagon....honestly its simply easier off running a 10 week self trial.

Purchase a vial of PGW brand Testosterone Cypionate,

Where?

 

[bixt]

Where?

That you will need to obtain from a friend of a friend of a friend. Its not difficult, start by asking your gym buddies.

 

[TribbleZA]

You can get a cream that you put on the bottom of your feet. But there are other supplements you can take

Testosterone Boosters: Do They Work?

Some supplements claim to boost testosterone levels. Here, we examine the research behind testosterone boosters and suggest what may help.

www.healthline.com

DHEA seems like a good idea. But you could also go to the muscle building section in Dischem and chat to one of the guys that work there - they have lots of testosterone pills / shakes / etc

 

[Steamy Tom]

You can get a cream that you put on the bottom of your feet. But there are other supplements you can take

Testosterone Boosters: Do They Work?

Some supplements claim to boost testosterone levels. Here, we examine the research behind testosterone boosters and suggest what may help.

www.healthline.com

DHEA seems like a good idea. But you could also go to the muscle building section in Dischem and chat to one of the guys that work there - they have lots of testosterone pills / shakes / etc

Lol - the dudes at dischem are selling test and growth hormone now xD

 

[syntax]

TRT / HRT works and it works well. There are some long term possible complications
A simple blood test will help you and your doctor determine if your test is low, estrogen high etc and if this is a good idea.
Some doctors are exceptionally open to these kinds of things and if you tell them you might administer this yourself, they will give advice, do regular blood checks etc.
you also dont mention your age or if you want kids or are planning on having kids.
TRT can mess with your fertility, there are ways around this but you need to be aware of everything before jumping into this.
Additionally if you decide to stop TRT, you need to do a few things to try and help your body recover. Just stopping will not be pleasant.
Lastly, you will need to do regular blood work to see what your body is doing. You may need to control your estrogen

There are also different types of Test that you can utilize. In a basic form it revolves around how fast it breaks down which means how often you have to inject. This can range from every other day to once in 10 weeks +
Typically if you are going to do this yourself, you would use Test E / Test C and inject twice a week or every 5 days (depending on who you listen to). As was mentioned earlier, its relatively inexpensive and depending on your dosing would cost you around R450 for around 3 to 4 months.

 

[MiW]

I had extreme anxiety and kept telling doctors its something wrong with my chemistry , not with my brain. They kept giving me anti anxiety and anti depressants , until I nearly died from losing weight not sleeping and malnutrition. Finally an endocrinologist, found out I have Vitamin deficiency (genetic stuff). I was a new person after the first pill.
I was convinced that it was adrenal gland problems, all the signs were there, I was wrong.

I send 4 more people with anxiety and other similar problems. One was having to high cortisol, another low progesterone, another Thyroid and low magnesium and the last heavy metals.
It's better if you go and check everything, there are to many reasons to have same symptoms, and if you lack something in your body, you should find the reason , not just treat the symptoms.

 

[throwawaysorry]

Hi Guys thanks for all the responses again, it really is very much appreciated.

@Gozado With regards to the root cause - I feel like the root cause is low testosterone / high estrogen. As I mentioned, all of the "effects" I have are symptoms of this from what I have read. And over the years I have tried everything, Therapy, suppliments, cognitive changes, anti depressants, stimulants (concerta etc), the list goes on. I am still applying all of these daily and nothing has changed. I force myself to Gym and eat extremely healthy as well and I am unable to get into shape. The person that I gym with does the same weight routine as myself and he is visibly showing results, Still nothing for me. I still have the pear shape body and no muscle growth. I don't get "morning wood" anymore either. The worst part of all of this is the extreme anxiety / depression. It is debilitating and there seems to be nothing in life that is exciting (anhedonia), even though on paper I have "everything" I honestly cant think what else it could be.

I have had the basic tests done and I fall into the lower range of normal for testosterone and the high for estrogen. Again, everything I read says that most doctors will NOT consider treatment because the ranges are so skewed.

So my last resort seems to be finding a doctor that is open to the idea (which again seems very rare).

@syntax Thank you for you long response. Do you perhaps know of a doctor that is open to this in a younger male? Like you mentioned, I want to go about this the right way and monitor blood results etc. I really do, but I worry that I can't find someone willing to give me the opportunity which will then lead me to go the self medicating route. I really really do not want to do that.

 

[throwawaysorry]

Are you in Cape Town? I have also looked for a endocrinologist that has even slightly positive reviews, but everything I have found has been pretty lackluster. A normal GP will not know how to interpret the blood work properly and I don't want to waste my time and become more negative.

 

[Ancalagon]

I'm sorry you are going through all of this.

I would see a doctor about this, but bear in mind that testosterone production is linked to excess body fat. As far as we can tell, this means it is a two way street - lose body fat and you produce your T, have low T and you have higher body fat.

This means it MAY be possible for you to raise your own T through losing fat and resistance exercise. I know you have tried weight loss in the past and it didn't work. I'm just saying, if you were successful, it may be the answer.

Fat is an endocrine organ in its own right, and men with higher levels of adipose tissue (fat) tend to also have lower T and higher estrogen, and this resolves when they lose weight.

If you have also have depression and anxiety, those could be related to the low T, or they could be mental. Only you will know.

How would you describe your childhood? Easy? Traumatic? How would you describe your relationship with your parents? Are they still alive? Did they get divorced?

Some quick things you can try which may help your anxiety and depression. Go to YouTube and find hypnotherapy videos by Michael Sealey. Find ones related to self confidence, anxiety or clearing your sub conscious of negative thoughts. Now, some people may say that this stuff is bunk and doesn't work, but you've got nothing to lose, right? Just one hour of your time. Try one session for one hour and see if it helps. Won't cost you a cent.

I personally think hypnotherapy is pretty powerful stuff. I use it, and I see benefits.

Other things to think of in terms of T:
Sleep. Get enough of it. Stop using electronic devices by 9PM, sleep in a dark, cool, silent room.
Resistance exercise. Loading your muscles makes your body produce T.
Food. Cut out the junk food, cut out the sugar, eat vegetables, cheese, nuts and meat.
Go for a walk every day. This burns a little fat, but more importantly, its good for your mental well being.

 

[MiW]

I am in JHb, took me 8 years to find the right guy,I went at least 4 times in ER and no one bothered to help. The last ER doctor told me to put my head between my knees .The money is worth it, since it saves you on everything else you try to fix your problem. And GPs are not very clued up on even what tests to request , and most don't bother to tell you about fasting and time of day to make them.

 

[throwawaysorry]

So just a bit of my "history" to clear some things up - I have had a perfectly "healthy" childhood. I had great parents (mom passed away a while back, and no this is not the cause of my issues, I had all of this many years before her passing), still have a good relationship with my family. On paper, I have everything I could want at my age - financial success, own company, travel frequently and all that. Still, nothing brings me joy and I suffer with extreme anxiety non stop, always have.

With regards to weight - I used to be extremely over weight and I have lost nearly all of it which took me an incredibly long time and being very strict. This has not really seemed to help with energy / concentration levels or anything else for that matter. I still follow a strict Keto diet which seems to be the best for my brain fog, although it is not what a normal person should be, especially considering I also take 54mg of concerta daily.

With regards to suppliments - I currently take Magnesium, omega3, vitamin D and drink water with Sodium and Potassium to try and keep electrolytes high. Again, this has helped mildly for energy levels, but nothing seems to work for confidence / anxiety and depression. I am not even focusing on the lack of sexual drive or anything at this stage, I am just desperately needing to get anxiety and depression under control so I can find any relative joy in life.

 

[Nuke]

HRT can be amazing, the biggest problem is finding a doctor that knows anything about it. Unfortunately I can't help with that, I prefer doing things my way anyway. Had similar issues, so I decided to learn as much as I can about the steroidal hormones and doing it myself.

Without getting into the technical details here, it just hopping on Testosterone yourself may not be the optimal choice. While you may feel better, it will be far from optimal and can give problems in the long run. I would suggest getting a much bigger set of bloodwork done first, to get a proper baseline, and to fix other potential issues first, like the thyroid. It may also show you some dangers, eg. a high PSA.
When people ask me this is usually the list - give or take a few things depending on the person.
Liver function
Lipogram
Complete blood count
Thyroid function(TSH+T4)
Free Test(T+SHBG)
Estradiol
Progesterone
DHEA
Cortisol
Prolactin
PSA

Disclamer: I'm just a guy that has spend 100s of hours on researching hormones, I'm not a biochemist or doctor. I do help out some people that does the self medication route though, to minimize their risks.