Mr Scratch
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Thanks for your excellent post @WernerAVR
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The Bitcoin Thread
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Pho3nix
The Legend
This was mentioned either here or the tax thread but airwolf I think said the funds have to be declared as investments.
Will try find you the post
MrGray
Honorary Master
There doesn't seem to be any clarity on this, and I don't think there is any particular reason why Bitcoin should be considered an investment as opposed to a currency apart from by confused accountants who just want to make the problem go away by taking the path of greatest taxation (and therefore least comeback).
SARS classifies "virtual currencies" as neither a currency nor as a security. They are a kind of "virtual nothing" to SARS, it would seem.
http://www.treasury.gov.za/comm_media/press/2014/2014091801 - User Alert Virtual currencies.pdf
Jet-Fighter7700
Honorary Master
until zuma decides he wants another maybach or something, then miraculously it will be taxed...
right now, that's the beauty of BTC no taxes means you get much more for your money,
especially for travelling its very much worth investigations,
also governments should be terrified of BTC, as it has the power to upset the status quo with fiat money,
dont think people realize that yet, but when they do, things will change, and suddenly it will become "legal"
@ werneravr, you should PM RPM for Dealer Status, so we all know who you are,
wanted to ask you, how exactly does the referral code work, its not explained very well on your site,
MrGray
Honorary Master
Did you possibly mean to say that suddenly it will become "illegal", as I think that is a more realistic possibility when governments start realising the potential for lost revenue? Whether they will be able to do anything about practically is another issue.
Jet-Fighter7700
Honorary Master
well it could go either way, they will try to ban it like they "try" with pirated movies ect, that wont succeed,
like everything else on the internet, somebody will find a way to bypass any restrictions.
or they can decide its "money" and tax it like anything else,
but its a fascinating situation, as as soon as one government starts to tax it, the floodgates will open,
me, I hope it stays the way it is right now, "grey" so we can all enjoy a slice of freedom without paying for zumas back scratcher...
MrGray
Honorary Master
well it could go either way, they will try to ban it like they "try" with pirated movies ect, that wont succeed,
like everything else on the internet, somebody will find a way to bypass any restrictions.
or they can decide its "money" and tax it like anything else,
but its a fascinating situation, as as soon as one government starts to tax it, the floodgates will open,
me, I hope it stays the way it is right now, "grey" so we can all enjoy a slice of freedom without paying for zumas back scratcher...
If they decide to treat it as currency then value fluctuations shouldn't incur any tax implication* (unless you're an active trader seeking to profit from buying/selling). In theory BTC will then fall under existing forex regulations.
On the other hand, if they decide to treat it as an investment instrument then gains/losses will fall under CGT. But I think this also has side consequences.
Another issue might be obtaining income in BTC - unlike the traditional banking system there is no access to an "account" and it doesn't even have a defined physical location nor any mechanism for reporting to a revenue authority. So you could create a receiving address, get paid and use the money, but there would be no realistic way for SARS to track this.
* (AFAIK SARS removed any tax implication for private individuals on gains in foreign currency holdings some time ago. This is where a lot of people get confused as any underlying asset bought/sold with foreign currency still attracts CGT but not the currency itself - e.g. 2 people put $100k in their US accounts, one buys an apartment and later sells it at a profit, the other does nothing with it but later converts back to Rand at a "profit". The guy who bought and sold the apartment will be liable for CGT on the difference of the converted Rand buy/sell value of the apartment. The guy who did nothing with it has no tax implication.)
Should work just like any other taxable gains/losses: you need to pay taxes on money you make. Technically, if you buy a guitar on Gumtree, polish it and sell it again at a profit, you'll need to declare it and pay taxes on it. Neither Gumtree, nor your bank files your taxes, you need to (and need to find out how it works).
From my research, the better question is if your Bitcoin gains will be treated as personal income or as capital gains. I think it depends on if you "just bought some" and one or two year later you sell it again, it should be treated as GCT. This is the same for when you buy stocks as an investment. If you are, however, actively trading Bitcoin, it can be compared to being a stock/currency/commodity trader, and they are taxed at the income tax rate. Most people are the "set it and forget it" stripe of buyer; the ones who don't really actively trade.
That said, talk to a tax lawyer or accountant, especially one who has clients who are forex or other types of traders. I'd be very interested in seeing what happened if someone lost a lot of money with crypto trading and if those losses can be offset against other income or carried forward. I think everything here (or the tax thread) will just be people shouting "hands off our magical internet money"
Lastly, not sure where the banks will be involved if you're buying property using bitcoin. Most people will probably just convert their Bitcoin to rand on an exchange like BitX, move the funds to their bank account and use it to finance a property. If you're buying a physical property outright with Bitcoin...I'd probably get a lawyer or someone who knows their stuff involved.
I've heard this too...except I think if he moved it around with the express intention of actively trading the money. Would love to hear if anyone else can give clarity on this.
Monopoly Money within the RSA according to treasury. Your bitcoin is not recognized as tender in South Africa.
Sorry: meant to ask about the example of one person buying a house with $100k another just sitting on the dollars. Upon sale of the house, CGT applies, but upon repatriation of the $ USD, from what I can tell, it doesn't...
Yeah, sadly the BitX referral code isn't very intuitive :-( It's a goal for the next quarter to improve it (but there's so many other exciting things happening before it)
-You should go to the Menu > Promotions.
-You'll see a 5 or 6 digit promo code.
-Give that to other people (they will go to Menu > Promotions > Redeem to enter your code)
-After they buy or sell 0.1 bitcoin or more, you'll get a little affiliate credit (R10 or something)
Will keep you posted once this has been improved. Sadly the margins are low and barriers high (and the scammers, they are persistent).
akescpt
Honorary Master
So who is Werneravr?
The guy who heads up Marketing and Growth at BitX. Doing it for/in all markets, but mostly based in SA.
Oh, I should probably mention --in a veeeery non-spammy way-- that we're hiring for quite a few more positions in Cape Town if others here are interested
What are you on about?
Don't use Bitx if you want to be anonymous.
You aren't been forced to use the service.
MrGray
Honorary Master
Which is why there is huge trading activity between crypto coins without anything ever touching a bank account - particularly between Eth and Btc.
Bitcoins will not suffer. It's been used for far worst things than boko haram
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MrGray
Honorary Master
Who is giving advice? And how is a cellphone company comparable to Bitcoin? How is a virtual currency going to suffer the same fate as a cellphone company? Sorry to be rude, but based on your comments I suspect you don't really know much about BTC or blockchain technology at all.
That's putting it nicely
C4Cat
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I read your statement, again and it makes no sense whatsoever. So instead of dropping hints and insinuation perhaps you can tell us what happened to MTN in Nigeria and why, and how that relates to bitcoin in any way whatsoever. I mean you do realise bitcoin is not a company or a business right? You can't fine bitcoin ffs
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