The Brexit Thread

[Ancalagon]

I think I see Theresa May's plan.
1. Agree a deal so bad that not even the leavers will want it.
2. Make Boris Johnson look like a di*k
3. Get the EU to make more concessions on top of what Cameron managed

Now the choice is between no deal and staying. And she will let Parliament choose, because they thats what they want. And therefore it will become Parliament's responsibility.

I think some of what you say is right, BUT, I do think that Brexit has showed the impossibility of a "good" Brexit in the first place. The problem is the Ireland/Northern Ireland border. There are simply no good solutions to that. If there were, you can bet that would be the selected implementation. The so-called Irish backstop shows how impossible it is to have Northern Ireland both out of the EU and having a frictionless border with Ireland at the same time. That was the best they could do and you can see how massively unpopular it is.

The other option - joining the EEA - is not really Brexit at all. They keep freedom of movement but give up any say in how the EU is run - hardly a victory for Britain at all.

So yeah, you might say it was inevitable. Look how the calls for a second referendum have increased massively - once people understood what they were actually getting when they voted Brexit, they realized they didn't want it.

As for hard Brexit - a hard border in Northern Ireland and disastrous consequences for many businesses in the EU, I can't believe people actually want that. I can't believe people actually want a no-deal Brexit. If no-deal Brexit happens, I think those who want it will be genuinely shocked at the economic consequences of it.

Once the deal was announced with the Irish backstop, it became inevitable that it would be rejected. So the question is, what next?

 

[Unhappy1]

Nor was my reason trade related. It was simply related to a disgust with the corruption riddling the EU, to a deep concern about the expansionist policies of the EU (some of the fruits of which we can now see in the Ukraine), and to a feeling that I had no meaningful democratic vote in EU decisions.

Is Britain really much different? I see little reason that there will be a decrease in corruption with the current leaders. Only your last point may have some merit to it but then again, you voted to leave and that hasn't exactly worked out either so meaningful democratic vote is often a myth.

 

[Frequent visitor]

Is Britain really much different? I see little reason that there will be a decrease in corruption with the current leaders. Only your last point may have some merit to it but then again, you voted to leave and that hasn't exactly worked out either so meaningful democratic vote is often a myth.

which leads me to ask if Democracy is a sham? UK, SA, USA........

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

which leads me to ask if Democracy is a sham? UK, SA, USA........

It absolutely is. Hence unattributable pearls of wisdom like:

If voting could change anything it would be made illegal!

The Swiss are the closest to an actual democracy, everywhere else democracy is merely an illusion to placate the masses.

 

[Frequent visitor]

Is Britain really much different? I see little reason that there will be a decrease in corruption with the current leaders. Only your last point may have some merit to it but then again, you voted to leave and that hasn't exactly worked out either so meaningful democratic vote is often a myth.

Do you see no dangers in EU expansionism? I have in mind the shooting down of a Malaysian aircraft over Ukraine, and the invasion of that area by Putin in response to EU attempts to extend their influence in what he regards as an area of Russian influence - and has the means to back it up. Georgia is a candidate state: do you think he will not respond if that goes ahead? Ditto Turkey, which I also strongly object to, never mind Putin?

 

[C4Cat]

Do you see no dangers in EU expansionism? I have in mind the shooting down of a Malaysian aircraft over Ukraine, and the invasion of that area by Putin in response to EU attempts to extend their influence in what he regards as an area of Russian influence - and has the means to back it up. Georgia is a candidate state: do you think he will not respond if that goes ahead? Ditto Turkey, which I also strongly object to, never mind Putin?

I'm not sure the issue here. These are countries that have applied to join the EU, it's not like the EU is taking over countries without their consent. Turkey first applied to join the EEC in 1987, 30 years ago, and applied for full membership of the EU in 2005, so it's not like the the EU is ruthlessy taking over territories. And while there might be conflict between the EU and Russia. if the EU collapsed there would, once again, be conflict throughout Europe, which would be far worse. I'm firmly in that camp that thinks less borders is better than more.

 

[Ancalagon]

Do you see no dangers in EU expansionism? I have in mind the shooting down of a Malaysian aircraft over Ukraine, and the invasion of that area by Putin in response to EU attempts to extend their influence in what he regards as an area of Russian influence - and has the means to back it up. Georgia is a candidate state: do you think he will not respond if that goes ahead? Ditto Turkey, which I also strongly object to, never mind Putin?

If you're worried about Russia, surely a stronger EU state would act as the right deterrent? Europe working together to contain Russia is better than each country acting on its own.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

if the EU collapsed there would, once again, be conflict throughout Europe

Completely baseless assertion, besides, Europe is all peaceful now is it?

 

[Dave]

Completely baseless assertion, besides, Europe is all peaceful now is it?

Disingenuous, I’m sure you know @C4Cat is talking about war when he talks of conflict.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Disingenuous, I’m sure you know @C4Cat is talking about war when he talks of conflict.

Still a baseless assertion, the EU is not some magical war prevention body, its demise will not hail in WW3.

Pretty much every other continent has multiple countries and multiple borders today, none of them have started a world war.

 

[Dave]

Still a baseless assertion, the EU is not some magical war prevention body, its demise will not hail in WW3.

Pretty much every other continent has multiple countries and multiple borders today, none of them have started a world war.

Disingenuous, he never said a world war.

if the EU collapsed there would, once again, be conflict throughout Europe

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Disingenuous, he never said a world war.

Disingenuous, he never said war, he said conflict.

See how that works? Your nitpicking just makes my prior post all the more telling, plenty of conflict happening in Europe already.

 

[Unhappy1]

which leads me to ask if Democracy is a sham? UK, SA, USA........

Yeah in many ways it is.

Do you see no dangers in EU expansionism? I have in mind the shooting down of a Malaysian aircraft over Ukraine, and the invasion of that area by Putin in response to EU attempts to extend their influence in what he regards as an area of Russian influence - and has the means to back it up. Georgia is a candidate state: do you think he will not respond if that goes ahead? Ditto Turkey, which I also strongly object to, never mind Putin?

If you see dangers in EU expansionism you must be pissing your pants when it comes to Russian imperialism.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Yeah in many ways it is.




If you see dangers in EU expansionism you must be pissing your pants when it comes to Russian imperialism.

Which of the two have added the most countries to its "club" in the last 3 decades?

 

[C4Cat]

Completely baseless assertion, besides, Europe is all peaceful now is it?

It's more peaceful now than any time prior to the formation of the EU.

 

[Dave]

Disingenuous, he never said war, he said conflict.

See how that works? Your nitpicking just makes my prior post all the more telling, plenty of conflict happening in Europe already.

Except anyone looking at his post would know what was being alluded to. You could go into a church and still see conflict.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Except anyone looking at his post would know what was being alluded to. You could go into a church and still see conflict.

Yes, anyone could see conflict in European terms means WW1 and WW2, no other EU conflict is worth mentioning.

You have another knot to tie yourself into?

 

[Unhappy1]

Which of the two have added the most countries to its "club" in the last 3 decades?

Russia lol and they have been involved in far more wars.

 

[Unhappy1]

I see Narrow is throwing eggs in his face again.

 

[Dave]

Yes, anyone could see conflict in European terms means WW1 and WW2, no other EU conflict is worth mentioning.

You have another knot to tie yourself into?

That’s nonsense (possibly because you aren’t seeing things from a European perspective), a lot of European people would think of the Balkans/Yugoslav war first if it asked about recent European wars.