The Brexit Thread

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Dave said:
Ireland won’t support Northern Ireland reunification without an overwhelming vote to do so, you know the British army was posted to Northern Ireland for decades to stop the 2 sides killing each other? As in car bombs, mortars and paramilitary groups with automatic weapons going at each other...
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The most well-known of those paramilitary groups, the IRA, aims precisely to end British rule and realize a unified republic though. One would imagine if the Northerners were to vote to do just that the violence shouldn't be a thing anymore.

Undoubtedly I underestimate the sectarian divide in the north, but in principle what was stolen should surely be returned, no? It also handily solves the whole land-border problem of a post-brexit UK, they wouldn't have a land border with the EU if they get rid of northern ireland :D
 
NarrowBandFtw said:
The most well-known of those paramilitary groups, the IRA, aims precisely to end British rule and realize a unified republic though. One would imagine if the Northerners were to vote to do just that the violence shouldn't be a thing anymore.
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I told you to go do some research, the IRA is only one group and no where near the most violent, on the Rep side that would probably be PIRA, there is also the CIRA and Real IRA, on the Loyalist side you get the UDF, UDA, LVF and Red Hand who were all militarily operational.

Undoubtedly I underestimate the sectarian divide in the north, but in principle what was stolen should surely be returned, no? It also handily solves the whole land-border problem of a post-brexit UK, they wouldn't have a land border with the EU if they get rid of northern ireland :D
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Nothing has been stolen, the northern provinces were never part of Ireland and even in the 1920’s were in the process of getting their own autonomy rule with Ireland as a separate state also with self government (Dominion status like Canada iirc) when the civil war started and they then refused to become part of independent Ireland at the negotiations that eventually led to the Irish Republic.

The UVF in Northern Ireland predates even Irish independence having been set up in the early 1900’s pledging to fight any attempt by the UK parliament to grant home rule to Ireland.
 
NarrowBandFtw said:
The most well-known of those paramilitary groups, the IRA, aims precisely to end British rule and realize a unified republic though. One would imagine if the Northerners were to vote to do just that the violence shouldn't be a thing anymore.

Undoubtedly I underestimate the sectarian divide in the north, but in principle what was stolen should surely be returned, no? It also handily solves the whole land-border problem of a post-brexit UK, they wouldn't have a land border with the EU if they get rid of northern ireland :D
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Go read this to give yourself an idea of the history.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles
 
NarrowBandFtw said:
Stolen = invaded with the natives expelled ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_invasion_of_Ireland
and then again
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tudor_conquest_of_Ireland
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Where were natives expelled? You do realise that the Gaels (the native inhabitants of what became Ireland) were also native to parts of Scotland, Wales and England as well? You’ll probably find that the majority of citizens of the Irish Republic share ethnicity with the Scots, Welsh and English.

If you try and use a policy of “400 years ago it was different” you’d find most of Europe doesn’t look quite the same as it does today.

The catholics and Protestants have hated each other for over 400 years. The chances of there ever being more than an uneasy peace is pretty remote.
 
Dave said:
Where were natives expelled?
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Just using words from the wiki entry:
Ireland in 1500 was shaped by the Norman conquest, initiated by Anglo-Norman barons in the 12th century. Many of the native Gaelic Irish had been expelled from various parts of the country (mainly the east and southeast) and replaced with English peasants and labourers
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Long story short, if you go back far enough in history you see Ireland (though there was not a republic, but a bunch of independent tribes) sure as hell was not part of England and was conquered (or stolen if you prefer). Throughout that ancient history the reunification / independence question keeps resurfacing, the very fact that in 2018 people are still talking about a topic that really started way back in 1169 is proof of that.

One has to wonder, given that Britain has pretty much given up the vast majority of all its colonies through history, what makes Ireland special aside from its close proximity to England?

I'd love to see Northern Ireland (and for good measure why not the Republic as well at the same time) have an official vote on reunification in the brexit era.
 
NarrowBandFtw said:
Just using words from the wiki entry:


Long story short, if you go back far enough in history you see Ireland (though there was not a republic, but a bunch of independent tribes) sure as hell was not part of England and was conquered (or stolen if you prefer). Throughout that ancient history the reunification / independence question keeps resurfacing, the very fact that in 2018 people are still talking about a topic that really started way back in 1169 is proof of that.

One has to wonder, given that Britain has pretty much given up the vast majority of all its colonies through history, what makes Ireland special aside from its close proximity to England?

I'd love to see Northern Ireland (and for good measure why not the Republic as well at the same time) have an official vote on reunification in the brexit era.
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Even the suggestion of reunification from an official source could reignite the troubles, it’s why politics are so slow and difficult in Northern Ireland.

I’d love to see you on the Shankhill Road telling the loyalists they stole their land, it would be .... interesting ;)
 
Dave said:
Even the suggestion of reunification from an official source could reignite the troubles, it’s why politics are so slow and difficult in Northern Ireland.
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Did the 1973 vote reignite or aggravate it much?

Dave said:
I’d love to see you on the Shankhill Road telling the loyalists they stole their land, it would be .... interesting ;)
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Hey facts are facts, I've told quite a few Ukranians that Crimea was originally stolen, they don't love hearing it, but so far it hasn't caused any violence directed at me :p
 
NarrowBandFtw said:
Did the 1973 vote reignite or aggravate it much?
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The list of terrorist incidents in 1973 is a bit long to cut and paste.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/chron/ch73.htm

Hey facts are facts, I've told quite a few Ukranians that Crimea was originally stolen, they don't love hearing it, but so far it hasn't caused any violence directed at me :p
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You tried that somewhere like Shankhill in the marching season you wouldn’t be walking out again, if you’re lucky you would be on an ambulance gurney and not a coroner’s one.
 
You guys live in south Africa yet you worried about Britain yet if the British want Brexit it's their problem . They must live with the consequences . You guys supposed to build south Africa.
 
Mrlepen said:
You guys live in south Africa yet you worried about Britain yet if the British want Brexit it's their problem . They must live with the consequences . You guys supposed to build south Africa.
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How sure are you of your facts?
 
Very sure last year you were complaining about Zuma we got rid of him now you have a wonderful president you guys wanted unlike Zuma so you should be happy .
Dave said:
How sure are you of your facts?
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Dave said:
Even the suggestion of reunification from an official source could reignite the troubles, it’s why politics are so slow and difficult in Northern Ireland.

I’d love to see you on the Shankhill Road telling the loyalists they stole their land, it would be .... interesting ;)
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I naively thought that "The Troubles" was something that was long past and everything is all fabulous.

Until I moved to the UK. One of my junior engineers had just left the British Army where he was a Demolitions Expert. I figured he had served in Afghanistan or Iraq. He told me he had never been. He was full time in Northern Ireland defusing pipe bombs and all sorts of explosives. This was 2015.

So although not as bad as the 70's still plenty of issues that will forever remain complex and unresolved.
 
Mrlepen said:
Very sure last year you were complaining about Zuma we got rid of him now you have a wonderful president you guys wanted unlike Zuma so you should be happy .
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You didn’t answer the question, how sure are you of your facts?
 
buka001 said:
I naively thought that "The Troubles" was something that was long past and everything is all fabulous.

Until I moved to the UK. One of my junior engineers had just left the British Army where he was a Demolitions Expert. I figured he had served in Afghanistan or Iraq. He told me he had never been. He was full time in Northern Ireland defusing pipe bombs and all sorts of explosives. This was 2015.

So although not as bad as the 70's still plenty of issues that will forever remain complex and unresolved.
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There’s a book by one of the EOD guys, it’s quite eye opening that the devices in NI were so much more tricky (and deliberately constructed to blow the EOD tech up) than what was experienced in Afghanistan.

If I remember, the author was called Chris Hunter.

Edit

This one:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eight-Lives-Down-Dangerous-World/dp/0553385283
 
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f2wohf said:
Interesting, I didn't know the UK also had its conflict named officially something else.

We had the "events of Algeria" (to avoid saying war), the UK had the "troubles" of Northern Ireland. :D
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British understatement. Just a spot of bother.

buka001 said:
I naively thought that "The Troubles" was something that was long past and everything is all fabulous.

Until I moved to the UK. One of my junior engineers had just left the British Army where he was a Demolitions Expert. I figured he had served in Afghanistan or Iraq. He told me he had never been. He was full time in Northern Ireland defusing pipe bombs and all sorts of explosives. This was 2015.

So although not as bad as the 70's still plenty of issues that will forever remain complex and unresolved.
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Incidentally watched this a documentary few weeks ago. Very good, and sad.

A Mother Brings Her Son to Be Shot

One night Majella O'Donnell took her teenage son Philly to be shot in both legs. Majella, Philly and his shooters all live within an extraordinary community in Derry, Northern Ireland. The "Troubles" officially ended in 1998 but this community is still at war. They do not accept the government or police. All this happens within the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom. How do you bring your son to be shot? What happens afterwards? How does family life continue? How does a community respond? When do wars really end? For five years Sinéad O'Shea has filmed this shocking portrait of a post conflict society.
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Mrlepen said:
You guys live in south Africa yet you worried about Britain yet if the British want Brexit it's their problem . They must live with the consequences . You guys supposed to build south Africa.
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It's more interesting to watch a situation unfold without knowing how it ends up. Brexit, in that sense, is interesting and could turn out to be wildly successful, a complete stuff-up, or anything in between.

South Africa's future is becoming more and more clear every day sadly, not worth building something that will be destroyed (or "expropriated"), the country is pretty fekked and we're passing the point of no return where only a miracle could turn things around ...
 
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