The Brexit Thread

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NarrowBandFtw said:
There's nothing special about the border other than it being the only land border the UK has.

Hundreds of countries around the world have been dealing with land borders for centuries, including the UK itself in many of its past colonies. It really isn't anywhere near as big, and certainly not unique, a problem to solve as it is made out to be.

It's a land border with another nation, decide if you want it to be porous or not, decide if you trust that nation or not and act accordingly.
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Yeah, lets go back to IRA bombings and the troubles... "Nothing special" about the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland....??? Jesus, really?
 
Cray said:
Yeah, lets go back to IRA bombings and the troubles... "Nothing special" about the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland....??? Jesus, really?
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Yes really, your virtue signalling merely points out one thing: there is no trust between the parties on either side of the border.

Land borders like that are everywhere, there is nothing special about them, act accordingly.
 
NarrowBandFtw said:
Yes really, your virtue signalling merely points out one
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Yawn, another BS conservative term for people who don't like having the consequences of certain actions pointed out to them.

NarrowBandFtw said:
thing: there is no trust between the parties on either side of the border.

Land borders like that are everywhere, there is nothing special about them, act accordingly.
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The point being is that the current border is currently treated as nothing of the sort so it appeases both sides, do you think Irish republicans are going let a hard border in Ireland rest when they spent all those years fighting for unification?
 
Cray said:
do you think Irish republicans are going let a hard border in Ireland rest when they spent all those years fighting for unification?
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DILLIGAF?

A soft border is not a unified Ireland, a hard border is no less unified than the entirely not unified Ireland. They're the Mexico to the UK's San Diego. They do not get a say in it at all. If a border crossing suddenly jolts them out of the delusion that it isn't two different countries, but magically a unified one they have only themselves to blame.
 
Cray said:
You know there are people within Northern Ireland who would also be upset by a hard border?
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They can also proceed to blame themselves, it isn't a unified country and has not been for centuries, if they are pretending any different it is all on them.

They're free to petition their own government for official reunification if they wish, unlike the Irish across the border, they don't get any say at all.
 
Dave said:
https://tabloids.askdefine.com/




https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabloid_journalism



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabloid_journalism#Red_tops


You come over as a prime example of a Daily Mail reader.
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Wrong. I have read both the Times and the Mail when picked up free at Dubai, but that is it, unless a headline catches my attention in the UK, which is very rare. In SA the weekly UK papers are now down to the Express, which I switched from in 1968 in the UK, switching to another. I will leave you to guess if you care
.
Comparing the UK papers with SA ones is difficult. The Pretoria News was taken over by Iqbal Surve, and carried some non afrikaans pieces at first, which I welcomed, although some of them were as bad as the afrikaans ones! Nonetheless there was enough sensible thinking to interest me. Then came the self justifying whining from Surve and his lap - er hound - de Wet which gave me food for thought. The pieces of non afrikaans opinion disappeared largely, as did any news coverage. Then we had an unattributed diatribe against Tiso Blackstar a week or so back, which seemed to have Surves hand in it. Time for a change, I decided. There was less and less actual news, less informed opinion, and the Business section was now unreliable, so definitely time for a change. I was surprised at some of the competition, I have to say. Room for improvement maybe, but better then the Pretoria News.
On Sunday I bought the Independent (no good), the Sunday Times (gone through or going through a bad patch) and the Citizen ( has promise). The exploration continues!
I do miss ANN7 though. At least you knew what the fake news was!
 
Ancalagon said:
They have the legal right to enforce their borders - it is just that doing so is difficult.
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Yes it is. I last applied my mind to it around 10 years ago. There were tunnels under the border, both in Mexico and in Canada. US officials enforcing the law were caught being corrupt. Aircraft were flying in from the Caribbean and South America, submarines (some makeshilft) were being used, swimmers were crossing the rivers..... the list was endless.

If you start with the proposition that there is no such thing as a sealed border, you won't go far wrong.
 
Cray said:
You know there are people within Northern Ireland who would also be upset by a hard border?
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People bang on about residual racism in SA, but try NI!!
We used to say that the definition of an argument was two Irishmen in tne same room! So yes, there will be some in Northen Ireland that would be upset by a hard border. There is a border now of course, but not with permanent structures. When there was a 'hard' border it was difficult to police, to put it mildly. I remember some colleagues (C&E) patrolling in the border area when they saw a suspicious vehicle on an 'unapproved' - i.e. not designated for border crossing- road, and gave chase. Eventually it stopped, and the driver ran across the fields to the Republic and safety. The lorry and contraband were seized, and taken to a secure place. The next morning a man approached and said "I see you've found my lorry officers: it was stolen last night by some spalpeens. Can I trouble you for the keys please?"
As a NI colleague said to me, "The trouble with this place is the hidden agendas." You will NEVER please all of the NI people all of the time.
 
Dave said:
And useless Tory government regulations means even when the police or border agency officers catch an illegal they’re often bailed back out pending a hearing.

Guess how many just disappear after being released pending the hearing?
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The word 'Tory' is superfluous. The original agency was set up on 1.04.08, under the labour government. If you go to say Dublin airport, and see how the Irish Immigration deal with arrivals from elsewhere, you will see that non CPA residents simply have to tell the Officer that they are going to the UK ferry tomorrow to be allowed in without demur, with or without UK visas.
This has being going on in Europe for many years. If you are going to be someone else's problem, you are allowed entry. The same goes for dutiable goods. As an illustration one of my team was sent on a Matthaeus exchange to Spain, and saw what I have described going on. When he enquired he was met with a shrug of the shoulders - not our problem. This particular place dealt with many africans, but others too.
 
NarrowBandFtw said:
There's nothing special about the border other than it being the only land border the UK has.
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So you don’t really understand the history of the border or the fact the current system is underwritten by an international treaty (the Good Friday Agreement) and how certain rights and guarantees (the ECHR as an example) are written into that treaty, then?
 
Dave said:
In the context of the discussion it’s not. The Tories have had since 2010 to tighten or change those processes and haven’t bothered to.
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Dave said:
In the context of the discussion it’s not. The Tories have had since 2010 to tighten or change those processes and haven’t bothered to.
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Well they did change things a little. Mrs. May tried bringing them under her wing instead of as an agency. It made no discernable difference.
I consider the Immigration Service (to use its old name) has fallen by the wayside. My wife, who is compliant by inclination, has been given a hard time when travelling alone, to the point of being reduced to tears. She is now 76, and is not a threat to the UK in any way. I find it necessary to go with her to Immigration myself when travelling together: she then has no problem. Without me - dear lord! I used to work at the exact same airport for Customs, and I know just what is acceptable in relations with the public. These present people would be out of a job were I still in charge. We expect to be asked about our intentions, but the aggression and rudeness is not acceptable from a public servant. May is a very weak 'leader', and Cameron before her was an addle pated noncompoop of the self styled upper classes. They achieved little because they were tackling the wrong target. I would guess they have an IQ of around 125, which will not be enough to run the UK.
 
NarrowBandFtw said:
This old thing? https://assets.publishing.service.g...ads/attachment_data/file/136652/agreement.pdf

Says nothing that prevents a hard border. Next.
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You really have shown a complete ignorance for the whole NI issue and how/why that culminated in the Troubles with that post, haven’t you?

Trying to explain the Troubles to someone thousands of miles away is probably a job too far for today, so how about we start with this simple clause instead?

The British Government will complete incorporation into Northern Ireland law of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR), with direct access to the courts, and remedies for breach of the Convention, including power for the courts to overrule Assembly legislation on grounds of inconsistency.
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So, ECHR and access to the court is written in and guaranteed in NI law under an international treaty that cannot be unilaterally changed, now what?

What do the Brexiteers want to do with the ECHR (convention and court)?
 
Frequent visitor said:
Well they did change things a little. Mrs. May tried bringing them under her wing instead of as an agency. It made no discernable difference.
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Why didn’t they just amend the regulations by SI? Detention by virtue of being a flight risk wouldn’t breach the HRA. There are examples of migrants/failed asylum seekers being granted bail even after being arrested after absconding while on bail.

Then it wouldn’t matter what status the agency or department has, the law being the law, and all that...
 
Dave said:
You really have shown a complete ignorance for the whole NI issue and how/why that culminated in the Troubles with that post, haven’t you?
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Top kek, I was specifically commenting on the wording of the agreement, you're extrapolating all this other bs all by yourself.

Dave said:
ECHR and access to the court is written in and guaranteed in NI law under an international treaty that cannot be unilaterally changed, now what?
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A hard border doesn't change that, now what?
 
Dave said:
So, ECHR and access to the court is written in and guaranteed in NI law under an international treaty that cannot be unilaterally changed, now what?

What do the Brexiteers want to do with the ECHR (convention and court)?
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What does the ECHR have to do with the price of eggs? As far as I know, it is separate from the EU, since it was created decades before the EU even existed.

If the UK is a signatory to the ECHR, which they are, then it makes no sense for NI to not implement the ECHR. Even if Brexit occurs, I don't see why that would change.
 
Dave said:
Why didn’t they just amend the regulations by SI? Detention by virtue of being a flight risk wouldn’t breach the HRA. There are examples of migrants/failed asylum seekers being granted bail even after being arrested after absconding while on bail.

Then it wouldn’t matter what status the agency or department has, the law being the law, and all that...
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Simple really. The competent (well, better than most!) higher civil servants were replaced by Blairite Quangoistas who flitted from catastrophe to catastrophe. Follow the career of the scruff head who ended up at HMRC a few years ago for an example, one Lin Homer. You will see what I mean.
 
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