ToxicBunny
Oi! Leave me out of this...
The issue is that you seem to think this is the EU's problem only... when its not...
-
Join the MyBroadband community
South Africa’s biggest forum. Discuss, discover, and connect with thousands of members.
-
Question of the Day: Do you bet on sports?
The Brexit Thread
- Thread starter OrbitalDawn
- Start date
- Status
The issue is that you seem to think this is the EU's problem only... when its not...
Ireland is forced to renege on an international agreement by the UK's unilateral actions.
They either have to renege on the GF agreement to keep to their treaty with the EU, or they have to renege on their treaty with the EU to keep to the GF agreement.
They are in a catch 22 - international law is on their side here because:
- they were not the instigator - the UK acts, and they are forced to react due to agreements already in place.
- there is no precedent anywhere to force a country not to impose a hard border in a situation where the neighbour refuses to agree to a customs union.
Pitbull
Verboten
Ok, so now we're moving to the duties and customs? Between RI and UK(NI)?
Pitbull
Verboten
ToxicBunny
Oi! Leave me out of this...
Theyre both part of the EU, so why would there be?
No.
What a mess. Still, if UK is that instigator but still honours the agreement while Ireland was forced to break the agreement, I'd put Ireland in the wrong here. But I'm not international agreements lawyer.
Pitbull
Verboten
Maybe I'm wording it wrong, not duties per se.
As an example: Fuel and cigarettes are currently smuggled between the two countries due to difference in taxes (duties) determined by the governments. These are but two examples but there are many many many.
Only difference now, NI/UK will have to get new trade agreements with other countries, just like the rest of the world does who are not included in the EU custom union...
Pitbull
Verboten
If you buy items at a duty free shop in an Airport, those duties refer to your taxes right (Tax free)
Are you saying duties on Cigarettes and Alcohol are the same in RI and NI?
Pitbull
Verboten
Everyone is responsible for their own pricing of goods.
As an example:
Brood from German, comes to RI and then NI. Both got it for the exact same price.
Are the citizens of these countries paying the same price?
Let's take it a bit further, if NI has the ability to make an agreement with let's say South Africa, is it possible they can get break for cheaper than they would from Germany?
It's not an explicit breach but the problem is how the populace of NI will view a hard border and how it will affect the peace, you cannot just wish away the history of the conflict by saying "feels"
NI voted by 55% to remain in the EU - how do you figure that to mean that they voted for a hard border?
Tariffs on imports from outside EU is the same for all members of the EU, part of the customs union agreement.
The EU is not a fiscal union - every country can levy its own taxes so excise duties and VAT differ between countries, but the customs union agreement imposes a nil-rating on these for cross-border B2B transactions.
Absolutely - how would NI farmers feel about this.
Pitbull
Verboten
My point exactly.
Would import duties implemented by the EU affect NI/UK. Definitely. Doesn't mean there aren't ways of cushioning the impact of it or even setting up better deals.
Pitbull
Verboten
Depends on the size of their wheat industry and if they can't cope with the demand buying cheaper than in the EU is a gain for the populace. You are assuming that NI as an example is a nett wheat exporter or (enter industry here). Similarly they can make new agreement for better rates on their exports. That is what trade agreements are for. Come now guys, you all had basic economics at varsity (those that did Bcom at least). I'm no economist, but you buy goods you need and export what you have in excess. That is why countries trade. The contribution the UK made to the EU is a loss the EU need to fill, the demand from the UK is something the EU needs to fill now. Similarly the UK can now get new agreements to replace the import and export requirements and discuss the deals around them.
Something they could not do under the EU.
You and I look at things from an economics perspective. It would be great if Brexit turns the UK into Singapore, but its not going to happen. A wealthy country like Britain is willing to waste money on vanity projects like preserving the traditional character of its rural areas.
I am not in favour of trade barriers, and would love to specifically see the UK drop barriers to the import of agricultural products. This is not going to happen.
UK farming is as heavily subsidised as French and German farming, and more heavily subsidised than Irish farming.
Lets stick to this discussion around Ireland:
The UK farming industry cannot survive without tariffs on imports from non EU countries.
UK farmers will also struggle to compete with Irish products if no tariffs are imposed, or if the tariffs are not policed through checks at the Republic/NI border.
f2wohf
Honorary Master
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2014
- Messages
- 15,157
- Reaction score
- 923
The EU (thanks to its crystal ball) saw in 2013 that the UK was going to leave and started negotiations 6 years before Brexit just to cater for Brexit.
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/eu-japan-economic-partnership-agreement/
Pitbull
Verboten
You just sparked my interest in especially the farming sector.
By the looks of it, they farm for the UK themselves. No notable exports on this chart:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/281807/largest-export-commodities-of-the-united-kingdom-uk/
But time will tell how this will change things. I'm pretty sure cars won't be so cheap in the UK no more
Agriculture specifically:
https://www.export.gov/article?id=United-Kingdom-Agricultural-Sectors
Interesting read.
You just sparked my interest in especially the farming sector.
By the looks of it, they farm for the UK themselves. No notable exports on this chart:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/281807/largest-export-commodities-of-the-united-kingdom-uk/
But time will tell how this will change things. I'm pretty sure cars won't be so cheap in the UK no more
Agriculture specifically:
https://www.export.gov/article?id=United-Kingdom-Agricultural-Sectors
Interesting read.
Yes they import 40% of their food, and if they did not impose trade barriers they would soon have to import 100% as the type of farming the UK government encourages cannot compete with commercial farming on other continents.
If they don't police their borders they will not be able to impose the trade barriers they need to keep their agri sector alive.
The same argument applies to a lesser extent to their manufacturing sector.
Dave
Honorary Master
The NI-Eire problem is more complicated than the way it has been represented here, there are 2 major problems, firstly, the Good Friday Agreement is actually not just an Agreement, it’s also an International Treaty and cannot be unilaterally changed by either side, one clause of the Treaty guarantees NI residents a right to redress from the ECHR, as the NI govt (well, the DUP) refuse to allow any proposals that treat NI residents differently it means as the Treaty stands the ECHR would have to remain for all UK citizens if a deal can’t be done.
The other problem is if the UK was to go no deal and move to WTO trading, WTO rules do not allow discrimination in trading, if the UK allows border free access without restriction to goods from Eire/the EU, it must also give free (zero tariff) access to goods from every other country in the world who it trades with (its known as the “most favoured nation” rule), which isn’t something the UK wants (or will allow).
The other problem is if the UK was to go no deal and move to WTO trading, WTO rules do not allow discrimination in trading, if the UK allows border free access without restriction to goods from Eire/the EU, it must also give free (zero tariff) access to goods from every other country in the world who it trades with (its known as the “most favoured nation” rule), which isn’t something the UK wants (or will allow).
- Status