The Brexit Thread

[BBSA]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1185554531700084737

Champion BoJo.

He never said that, he said he will not negotiate a delay with the EU.

 

[Dave]

Are you sure you have the right side Chris? You talk about trickery while supporting Johnson the accomplished liar and back stabber who would stop at nothing in his drive to be PM, yet you dump on a true blue Tory with a proven track record who actually looks to have some scruples and a bit of moral fortitude.

He's probably seen lots of tweets and Facebook pages condemning Letwin.

 

[Gingerbeardman]

Are you sure you have the right side Chris? You talk about trickery while supporting Johnson the accomplished liar and back stabber who would stop at nothing in his drive to be PM, yet you dump on a true blue Tory with a proven track record who actually looks to have some scruples and a bit of moral fortitude.

But I guess as mentioned earlier, it's easy to see how Zuma got away with raping the country when people without a backbone like you are around.

The issue is that the remoaner camp lost the moral high ground. All of Boris' dirty tactics just became validated because you have to fight fire with fire and the claims that BoJo(or Brexiteers in general) alone was the one trying to subvert the process is no longer tenable.

 

[Spizz]

The issue is that the remoaner camp lost the moral high ground. All of Boris' dirty tactics just became validated because you have to fight fire with fire and the claims that BoJo(or Brexiteers in general) alone was the one trying to subvert the process is no longer tenable.

It's a complete clusterfsck. Maybe if Johnson had supported Mays deal as it was then with the same arguments he's using to rally support for it now, this might be all a bad dream. But of course, he had to drive a steamroller through his party, his allies and his friends first so he could become PM, because his own career is more important than his country.

To end up exactly where we were 3 months ago. Except of course the management have changed.

And now, he actually has the gall to plead that the same deal (without the backstabbing) be accepted for the good of the country. Get over this first hurdle he says, and we can move on and iron it out as we go. Wow. What a hypocrite. And at least May tried to accommodate the unionists of NI rather than just toss them aside after promising them, at their party conference no less, that he or any Conservative PM would never do that.

But listen to the accusations at the time and it was all a ploy by May the Remainer who never wanted to leave, so she negotiated the worst deal possible so it would never be accepted.

Lol, you couldn't make it up. It's ridiculous.

 

[AdrianH]

I must say, all the votes so far have been made public so at least the British public know which person voted for what. Very different here in SA when half the time, votes are kept secret.

 

[Gingerbeardman]

It's a complete clusterfsck. Maybe if Johnson had supported Mays deal as it was then with the same arguments he's using to rally support for it now, this might be all a bad dream. But of course, he had to drive a steamroller through his party, his allies and his friends first so he could become PM, because his own career is more important than his country.

That would have kept the UK in the EU indefinitely. This is what I'm talking about; May's deal was a bad faith attempt to keep the UK stuck in the EU in perpetuity, and the attempts to deny this are no longer credible.

To end up exactly where we were 3 months ago. Except of course the management have changed.

BoJo's alternative puts a deadline on the after-agreement such that a hard brexit happens in the event of no deal being reached within the time period provisioned for that purpose.

It's a fundamentally different deal.

And now, he actually has the gall to plead that the same deal (without the backstabbing) be accepted for the good of the country. Get over this first hurdle he says, and we can move on and iron it out as we go. Wow. What a hypocrite. And at least May tried to accommodate the unionists of NI rather than just toss them aside after promising them, at their party conference no less, that he or any Conservative PM would never do that.

Hate on BoJo all you want, it doesn't detract in the least from what I said in the post you're responding to.

But listen to the accusations at the time and it was all a ploy by May the Remainer who never wanted to leave, so she negotiated the worst deal possible so it would never be accepted.

Lol, you couldn't make it up. It's ridiculous.

Are you being dishonest on purpose? Seriously now...

 

[AdrianH]

Flow chart on way forward

 

[Spizz]

That would have kept the UK in the EU indefinitely. This is what I'm talking about; May's deal was a bad faith attempt to keep the UK stuck in the EU in perpetuity, and the attempts to deny this are no longer credible.


BoJo's alternative puts a deadline on the after-agreement such that a hard brexit happens in the event of no deal being reached within the time period provisioned for that purpose.

It's a fundamentally different deal.


Hate on BoJo all you want, it doesn't detract in the least from what I said in the post you're responding to.


Are you being dishonest on purpose? Seriously now...

I’m not sure what you mean? Dishonest about what?

Edit: And I should ask, apart from the NI issue, what is fundamentally different?

 

[Gingerbeardman]

I’m not sure what you mean? Dishonest about what?

Edit: And I should ask, apart from the NI issue, what is fundamentally different?

The May deal left the door open to be exploited by cynical remainers to extend the dispute with the EU indefinitely, thus ensuring a brexit that was in name only. Boris' deal closes that loophole, which Brexiteers rightly saw as a danger to Brexit as a whole given the duplicitous behaviour by the remoaners. The fact that Boris' deal has been so badly sabotaged when this is the only significant difference shows how the process is being abused by those who feel that the referendum produced the wrong result.

Which means that BoJo now has a legitimate casus belli against the other side for trying to strong-arm him into not getting a Brexit deal, which translates into a justification to flout the Benn act as far as the voting public is concerned regardless of what the letter of the law says.

 

[Spizz]

The May deal left the door open to be exploited by cynical remainers to extend the dispute with the EU indefinitely, thus ensuring a brexit that was in name only. Boris' deal closes that loophole, which Brexiteers rightly saw as a danger to Brexit as a whole given the duplicitous behaviour by the remoaners. The fact that Boris' deal has been so badly sabotaged when this is the only significant difference shows how the process is being abused by those who feel that the referendum produced the wrong result.

Which means that BoJo now has a legitimate casus belli against the other side for trying to strong-arm him into not getting a Brexit deal, which translates into a justification to flout the Benn act as far as the voting public is concerned regardless of what the letter of the law says.

Fair enough, there are forces at work and imo it’s pretty shocking that MPs are still trying to force a second referendum instead of getting a deal sorted.

But slow down a bit here. The proviso as I understand it is for revision of the NI issue for periodic review by Stormont only.

Otherwise, there is no control in immigration, fishing rights remain in the hands of the EU, the army is beholden to the EU, EU customs can set up in the UK and over rule UK officers on certain issues and whatever else is laid out in the summary I posted earlier.

What did I miss?

 

[Gingerbeardman]

But slow down a bit here. The proviso as I understand it is for revision of the NI issue for periodic review by Stormont only.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Do you remember that clip released by the EU, how they bragged about turning the UK into a colony?

Otherwise, there is no control in immigration, fishing rights remain in the hands of the EU, the army is beholden to the EU, EU customs can set up in the UK and over rule UK officers on certain issues and whatever else is laid out in the summary I posted earlier.

What did I miss?

Sounds like you're missing the changes to the sunset clause...

Edit:

There are three main differences between Theresa May's Brexit deal and Boris Johnson's one

Boris Johnson has been bullish about the UK leaving the EU on 31 October – will these changes help him?

www.thejournal.ie

 

[Spizz]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Do you remember that clip released by the EU, how they bragged about turning the UK into a colony?


Sounds like you're missing the changes to the sunset clause...

Edit:

There are three main differences between Theresa May's Brexit deal and Boris Johnson's one

Boris Johnson has been bullish about the UK leaving the EU on 31 October – will these changes help him?

www.thejournal.ie

The only “sunset clause” I can see in your link or anywhere else is to do with NI and the NI assembly’s (Stormont) option to vote on changes to the NI border which have to be approved by loyalists and republicans. That’s what I’m talking about perhaps rather clumsily in my last post.

Otherwise, it’s as I said. It’s Mays deal with the only real change being the NI border moving to the sea and NI unionists being shafted by a man who promised he wouldn’t do what he’s just done.

 

[Gingerbeardman]

The only “sunset clause” I can see in your link or anywhere else is to do with NI and the NI assembly’s (Stormont) option to vote on changes to the NI border which have to be approved by loyalists and republicans. That’s what I’m talking about perhaps rather clumsily in my last post.

Otherwise, it’s as I said. It’s Mays deal with the only real change being the NI border moving to the sea and NI unionists being shafted by a man who promised who wouldn’t do what he’s just done.

Your previous post appears to make allusions to things that would have been in place under the level playing field provision.

Not really sure what all the army stuff is about, from what I can tell it's a series of commitments May signed up to but I don't find any indication of it being part of the brexit negotiations proper.

Anyway, I'm still in favour of a hard Brexit, all things considered. If BoJo's playing at getting one and this deal is part of his play, great. If not, well, he still did better than May, and perhaps if everyone hadn't been trying to sabotage him, he could have done better.

 

[Dave]

I'm still in favour of a hard Brexit

That's the one thing I think would be a stupid idea.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

That's the one thing I think would be a stupid idea.

every outcome at this point is stupid:
- delay yet again, omg, let's bash our heads against that wall one more time, it's not quite bloody enough yet
- another referendum, ffs, the beatings will continue until the morale improves ...
- the "deal", wtf, what is the point of leaving if you bind yourself to every limitation of not leaving at all?

next to all of that tired BS, no deal looks downright rational, most certainly the outcome I'd favour, alas, the least likely outcome as well, the powers that be simply will not allow it

 

[Vox Populi Vox Dei]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1185622217985527808

Remember if you listen to the strong anti-Johnson crowd in this thread, you wouldn't think he was polling so well. In fact, you'd be wondering if Boris has any supporters.

 

[Vox Populi Vox Dei]

Are you sure you have the right side Chris? You talk about trickery while supporting Johnson the accomplished liar and back stabber who would stop at nothing in his drive to be PM, yet you dump on a true blue Tory with a proven track record who actually looks to have some scruples and a bit of moral fortitude.

But I guess as mentioned earlier, it's easy to see how Zuma got away with raping the country when people without a backbone like you are around.

Ah, a glorious post to expose your ignorance. True blue Tory my arse. You and Dave are the same...like to present yourselves as highly informed on political matters and yet it is clearly a facade. Like when Dave said Andrew Roberts was merely a Spectator columnist - he's actually an expert on Churchill.

Firstly, Letwin was one of the primary architects of the poll tax back in the late 1980s.

He also played an influential role in the much hated Fixed-Term Parliaments Act which as we seeing now is a completely dreadful piece of legislation.

But it is far from his first. That emerged from his stint as an adviser in the Downing Street Policy Unit between 1983 and 1986. As a young policy wonk, Sir Oliver championed the Poll Tax. It was he who recommended to the prime minister that she "use Scotland as a trail-blazer for the pure residence charge”, and who thus set in train a political disaster the like of which few governments have ever suffered.

The Poll Tax was the archetypal Letwin idiocy. On paper, intellectually, it was a flawless response to a problem (the inconsistencies with domestic and business rates). In the real world it was toxic.

In 1985, while still working for the policy unit, a memo was leaked in which he blamed the violence in the Broadwater Farm riots on the "bad moral attitudes" of the black residents, contrasting them with "lower-class, unemployed white people [who] lived for years without a breakdown of public order on anything like the present scale". When his then colleague Lord Young proposed a scheme to help black entrepreneurs, he attacked it on the basis that any funding would end up being spent on the "disco and drug trade".

In 2011, while a cabinet office minister, he was discovered throwing parliamentary papers away in St James's Park. A tabloid newspaper watched him do it on five separate occasions over two months. Although he was later cleared of dumping classified documents, what he did put in the bins – or hand directly to rubbish collectors – included papers from the Intelligence and Security Committee, printed out emails about Al-Qaeda and letters from constituents containing their personal data.

Two years later he spent the night in Ed Miliband’s office drawing up plans with the then Labour leader for state regulation of the press. The consequences of that betrayal of the freedom of the press remain with us.

Sir Oliver is a familiar type – a man of genuine intellectual gifts who is almost entirely useless in the real world. Infamously, he let two burglars into his home at 3am after they said they wanted to use his bathroom.

 

[C4Cat]

Do you remember that clip released by the EU, how they bragged about turning the UK into a colony?

I don't remember this clip, could you post it here please?

 

[Dave]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1185636506569977856

Where's that ditch?

 

[Spizz]

Ah, a glorious post to expose your ignorance. True blue Tory my arse. You and Dave are the same...like to present yourselves as highly informed on political matters and yet it is clearly a facade. Like when Dave said Andrew Roberts was merely a Spectator columnist - he's actually an expert on Churchill.

Firstly, Letwin was one of the primary architects of the poll tax back in the late 1980s.

He also played an influential role in the much hated Fixed-Term Parliaments Act which as we seeing now is a completely dreadful piece of legislation.

So I expose my ignorance by calling him a true blue Tory, and you post a whole passage that proves he is indeed just that

FYI, I certainly don’t know everything, but as a British person who lived through the Thatcher years and the poll tax riots, I certainly know more than you, who, erm, read a book.

Should I now go and tweet that so you can choose a reply to me?