The Brexit Thread

[buka001]

Another U-Turn

https://twitter.com/x/status/1441386473794588679

 

[The Voice]

Another U-Turn

https://twitter.com/x/status/1441386473794588679

I imagine this was always going to be the case anyway. Start out as strict as possible and then slowly ease it as the need arises. Not really surprising.

 

[Dave]

I imagine this was always going to be the case anyway. Start out as strict as possible and then slowly ease it as the need arises. Not really surprising.

It’s taken far too long, the industry has been calling for it for months, they’ll probably be lucky to have all the paperwork done for their visa before Christmas.

 

[The Voice]

It’s taken far too long, the industry has been calling for it for months, they’ll probably be lucky to have all the paperwork done for their visa before Christmas.

Wonder if it was in the works but ground to a halt by the pandemic like the rest of the world?

 

[Dave]

Wonder if it was in the works but ground to a halt by the pandemic like the rest of the world?

It only takes the permission of the cabinet to make the decision. The civil service hasn’t stopped working and I doubt processing 10k or 20k of visas would be that much extra work.

The government just didn’t want to do this because it was “Project Fear” when they were warned of this happening in the Brexit debate.

 

[zoozi]

The cause of our food and petrol shortages is Brexit – yet no one dares name it | Jonathan Freedland

The government can’t ensure we get the basic necessities of life, says Guardian columnist Jonathan Freedland

www.theguardian.com

British sovereignty! At least Boris and his mates are making bank.

 

[AdrianH]

The cause of our food and petrol shortages is Brexit – yet no one dares name it | Jonathan Freedland

The government can’t ensure we get the basic necessities of life, says Guardian columnist Jonathan Freedland

www.theguardian.com

British sovereignty! At least Boris and his mates are making bank.

Brexit just accelerated the HGV shortage in the UK that was already happening. In fact, there is a shortage across Europe with Germany and Poland experiencing significant shortages. Most countries are citing the same main issue where young people don't want to be truck drivers and the older HGV drivers are retiring and changing careers. I think a large number of older drivers retired during the pandemic which also contributed to the shortfall, and along with the visa/work permit issues for foreign drivers, it's even worse.

I read somewhere that the average age of an HGV driver in UK is 55. Even this article from 2016 shows the age of 53 and UK already had chronic shortage, with an expected shortage of 150 000 drivers by 2020.

Average Age Of A Truck Driver In The UK

The average age of the HGV driver is 53, with their imminent retirement posing a demand for faster turnover at a time when too few youngsters are being attracted to the profession

www.hgvtrainingnetwork.com

 

[AdrianH]

It was a rhetorical question, Cray

NMW is £8.91 per hour, or on a 48 hour week (which seems to be what truckers work as 4 x 12 hour shifts a week) around £22k pa.

They are restricted to only drive 9 hours a day for four days, and an additional 10 hour days for two days per week. Even though they can drive longer hours for a single week, the following week they must drive less so that over two week, the total driving time does not exceed 90 hours (or 45 hours per week).

I did read earlier they can now drive 11 hours in a single drive. Not sure if the two week total was changed though, doubt it.

 

[C4Cat]

Brexit just accelerated the HGV shortage in the UK that was already happening. In fact, there is a shortage across Europe with Germany and Poland experiencing significant shortages. Most countries are citing the same main issue where young people don't want to be truck drivers and the older HGV drivers are retiring and changing careers. I think a large number of older drivers retired during the pandemic which also contributed to the shortfall.

I read somewhere that the average age of an HGV driver in UK is 55. Even this article from 2016 shows the age of 53 and UK already had chronic shortage, with an expected shortage of 150 000 drivers by 2020.

Average Age Of A Truck Driver In The UK

The average age of the HGV driver is 53, with their imminent retirement posing a demand for faster turnover at a time when too few youngsters are being attracted to the profession

www.hgvtrainingnetwork.com

HGV haulage chief hits out at Grant Shapps' claim Brexit isn't to blame for driver shortage

Rod McKenzie, policy director of the Road Haulage Association, described the Transport Secretary's comments as 'boosterish claims in favour of a Government decision'

inews.co.uk

There are driver shortages right across Europe as well, but the EU has committed to improving driver facilities and haulage companies are committed to improving pay and conditions. Until the UK offers the same pay and working conditions as drivers have in the EU then many will stay away.”

Earlier this week, Brussels committed to a financial package to building new truck parking areas with improved facilities across the EU.

Last year, the EU also introduced new rules on road transport to end the distortion of competition in the sector while providing better working conditions for drivers.

The pay disparity between drivers from western and eastern Europe has also been levelling out since Covid and the logistics sector has face a huge rise in demand.

The UK’s leading trucking group also believes the granting of visas to EU drivers is only part of the solution to the nation’s shortage.

The Road Haulage Association (RHA) estimates there are 100,000 HGV vacancies, and blames the shortfall on a post-Brexit exodus of European drivers and a lack of driver training during the pandemic

EU drivers set to ignore Boris Johnson’s visa offer and won't come to UK to solve petrol crisis

Marco Digioia, general secretary of the European Road Haulers Association, said: "I expect many drivers will not return to the UK even if the UK Government allows them to."

inews.co.uk

 

[AdrianH]

HGV haulage chief hits out at Grant Shapps' claim Brexit isn't to blame for driver shortage

Rod McKenzie, policy director of the Road Haulage Association, described the Transport Secretary's comments as 'boosterish claims in favour of a Government decision'

inews.co.uk

EU drivers set to ignore Boris Johnson’s visa offer and won't come to UK to solve petrol crisis

Marco Digioia, general secretary of the European Road Haulers Association, said: "I expect many drivers will not return to the UK even if the UK Government allows them to."

inews.co.uk

The RHAs own survey shows the biggest reason for shortage is retirement.

How serious is the shortage of lorry drivers?

The industry says there's a shortage of 100,000 drivers but why is that and what is the likely impact?

www.bbc.co.uk

I dont think young people are interested in driving long hours for the pay they get. Allowing in foreign drivers to try fix the shortfall is like putting a plaster over a bullet wound, it help a bit, but it's going to carry on bleeding.

PS: You're up late/early?

 

[Dave]

They are restricted to only drive 9 hours a day for four days, and an additional 10 hour days for two days per week. Even though they can drive longer hours for a single week, the following week they must drive less so that over two week, the total driving time does not exceed 90 hours (or 45 hours per week).

I did read earlier they can now drive 11 hours in a single drive. Not sure if the two week total was changed though, doubt it.

You do realise they still get paid while loading and unloading and on mandatory breaks? The 4x12 hours stat is from the Road Hauliers Association.

 

[Dave]

Brexit just accelerated the HGV shortage in the UK that was already happening. In fact, there is a shortage across Europe with Germany and Poland experiencing significant shortages.

The UK is the only place where the shortage is causing supermarket stock shortages and supply issues for petrol stations, so their staff shortages are more “normal” as it was in the UK pre Brexit coming into force.

 

[The Voice]

The UK is the only place where the shortage is causing supermarket stock shortages and supply issues for petrol stations, so their staff shortages are more “normal” as it was in the UK pre Brexit coming into force.

How much has Brexit really contributed, though? Every single EU national I know here now has permanent residency, so surely it would've made sense for HGV drivers to do the same if they were making bank? Stat from last year showed that of the around 70000 drivers who were furloughed only about 12000 were EU nationals, so it's hardly like UK haulage was ever being carried by Europeans, only supplemented. A large portion of the furloughed drivers decided to move over to light goods delivery which exploded during the pandemic, or they simply took a package.

This is far deeper and more complex than "Brexit lol" and you know it. It's just become a convenient excuse for a problem that first started long before the referendum was even a thing. It's an ageing industry that's run out of Gen X drivers willing to put in really long hours. Throwing a few thousand EU drivers at the problem isn't going to make it go away, either, because the industry needs an entire new generation to haul long term, and that takes a lot of time and money.

There are a lot of things a lot of people failed to address over the years (pay, working conditions, training, etc) and it's all come to a head now. Blaming Brexit for all of it is simply wrong.

 

[Dave]

Blaming Brexit for all of it is simply wrong.

You must have missed my reply to you yesterday.

There is a dual problem, in the UK it’s Brexit and the failure to get new drivers into the system due to Covid, Poland and Germany will likely have the same Covid issue causing some shortages, but theirs is nowhere near the scale it is in the UK.

 

[C4Cat]

How much has Brexit really contributed, though? Every single EU national I know here now has permanent residency, so surely it would've made sense for HGV drivers to do the same if they were making bank? Stat from last year showed that of the around 70000 drivers who were furloughed only about 12000 were EU nationals, so it's hardly like UK haulage was ever being carried by Europeans, only supplemented. A large portion of the furloughed drivers decided to move over to light goods delivery which exploded during the pandemic, or they simply took a package.

This is far deeper and more complex than "Brexit lol" and you know it. It's just become a convenient excuse for a problem that first started long before the referendum was even a thing. It's an ageing industry that's run out of Gen X drivers willing to put in really long hours. Throwing a few thousand EU drivers at the problem isn't going to make it go away, either, because the industry needs an entire new generation to haul long term, and that takes a lot of time and money.

There are a lot of things a lot of people failed to address over the years (pay, working conditions, training, etc) and it's all come to a head now. Blaming Brexit for all of it is simply wrong.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1441482998558257152

 

[C4Cat]

I dont think young people are interested in driving long hours for the pay they get. Allowing in foreign drivers to try fix the shortfall is like putting a plaster over a bullet wound, it help a bit, but it's going to carry on bleeding.

That's exactly why I included the following in the quote:

There are driver shortages right across Europe as well, but the EU has committed to improving driver facilities and haulage companies are committed to improving pay and conditions. Until the UK offers the same pay and working conditions as drivers have in the EU then many will stay away.”

PS: You're up late/early?

I fell asleep again after posting

 

[AdrianH]

You do realise they still get paid while loading and unloading and on mandatory breaks? The 4x12 hours stat is from the Road Hauliers Association.

Indeed, except breaks are only legislated against hours worked, but not for pay.

There was a petition a few years back trying to get government to make breaks as paid breaks, as the driver is still responsible for the truck and load while on the break but not being paid. Don't think anything followed on from it.

 

[The Voice]

You must have missed my reply to you yesterday.

Honestly, I just may have.

 

[AdrianH]

How much has Brexit really contributed, though? Every single EU national I know here now has permanent residency, so surely it would've made sense for HGV drivers to do the same if they were making bank? Stat from last year showed that of the around 70000 drivers who were furloughed only about 12000 were EU nationals, so it's hardly like UK haulage was ever being carried by Europeans, only supplemented. A large portion of the furloughed drivers decided to move over to light goods delivery which exploded during the pandemic, or they simply took a package.

Other reason why domestic drivers left,

• Retirement (as you stated) because the average age of HGV in UK is currently 55. In 2019, there were more over 50s than under 50s
• Testing of both new and current drivers could not be done during pandemic leaving a massive backlog.
• Many drivers moved into home-delivery jobs that exploded during pandemic. (as you stated)
• Tax changes for drivers (IR35) meaning many drivers would have to pay more tax as they effectively became PAYE tax payers, so they chose to do something else.

Frankly, HGV drivers have been underpaid and under-appreciated for years.

 

[The Voice]

Other reason why domestic drivers left,

• Retirement (as you stated) because the average age of HGV in UK is currently 55. In 2019, there were more over 50s than under 50s
• Testing of both new and current drivers could not be done during pandemic leaving a massive backlog.
• Many drivers moved into home-delivery jobs that exploded during pandemic. (as you stated)
• Tax changes for drivers (IR35) meaning many drivers would have to pay more tax as they effectively became PAYE tax payers, so they chose to do something else.

Frankly, HGV drivers have been underpaid and under-appreciated for years.

Yeah, on that second point I've noticed an excessive amount of learner drivers on local roads. A friend of ours can't even get lessons for the next few months because instructors are so backed up after the pandemic. I can only imagine how difficult it must be for drivers trying to do their HGV licences now.