The Gauteng E-tolling Thread

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From what I understand - you cannot be arrested for not having an e-tag and not paying the tolls. Also, you cannot be blacklisted and your credit record cannot be affected by it. SANRAL are going to **** themselves over the next 8 weeks.
 
Tander said:
From what I understand - you cannot be arrested for not having an e-tag and not paying the tolls. Also, you cannot be blacklisted and your credit record cannot be affected by it. SANRAL are going to **** themselves over the next 8 weeks.
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You can be arrested for not paying your e-toll bill, and there is a very good chance you can be "Blacklisted" as it were.. whether any company will pay attention to the SANRAL listing is an issue that still has to be seen.
 
Tander said:
So pay up or go to jail then?
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In a very simplistic way....

SANRAL do still need to follow some of the laws relating to arresting a person... summons needs to be issued etc etc etc.. and the system pretty much won't be able to cope with the volume that gets thrown at it in my opinion.
 
ToxicBunny said:
You can be arrested for not paying your e-toll bill, and there is a very good chance you can be "Blacklisted" as it were.. whether any company will pay attention to the SANRAL listing is an issue that still has to be seen.
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The blacklisting is also a grey area. I had a discussion with someone that is incredibly knowledgeable in credit and he can't see it happening easily. And SANRAL will have to be careful. If they blacklist a person or correctly stated, bring a judgement for debt, a precedent will be set that the etolls can be viewed as a debt. This will open another can of worms

Edit: another thought. Anyone keen to do a request to SANRAL for the information they have on you via the freedom of information act. Might give a good view of what info they have on you.
 
ToxicBunny said:
In a very simplistic way....

SANRAL do still need to follow some of the laws relating to arresting a person... summons needs to be issued etc etc etc.. and the system pretty much won't be able to cope with the volume that gets thrown at it in my opinion.
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What I am getting at is - at a road block, can the arrest you for not paying toll fees?
 
Tander said:
So pay up or go to jail then?
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Debtors' Prison. An idea so good that three countries, count 'em, the UAE, Hong Kong and Greece still use it. This won't end well...
 
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creeper said:
The blacklisting is also a grey area. I had a discussion with someone that is incredibly knowledgeable in credit and he can't see it happening easily. And SANRAL will have to be careful. If they blacklist a person or correctly stated, bring a judgement for debt, a precedent will be set that the etolls can be viewed as a debt. This will open another can of worms

Edit: another thought. Anyone keen to do a request to SANRAL for the information they have on you via the freedom of information act. Might give a good view of what info they have on you.
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Agreed, its all a massive grey area... and SANRAL have to tread lightly whatever way they choose to go.

But in terms of the law as it stands right now, you can be arrested, and you can be blacklisted.
 
ToxicBunny said:
Agreed, its all a massive grey area... and SANRAL have to tread lightly whatever way they choose to go.

But in terms of the law as it stands right now, you can be arrested, and you can be blacklisted.
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How? They're exempted from the National Credit Act, therefore they can't legally issue credit, or blacklist you, surely?

There are a few inevitable lawsuits coming up...
 
ToxicBunny said:
But in terms of the law as it stands right now, you can be arrested, and you can be blacklisted.
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I would imagine that they have to summons you to appear in court for being in contravention of the SANRAL Act first. If you then ignore that summons then you can be arrested. Being in contravention of the SANRAL Act is a relatively minor offence carrying a R1000 fine - I don't think that wouldn't be arrestable by itself?
 
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MagicDude4Eva said:
You do know that sharing is caring. Due to my sophisticated "hacking skills" (read Google) and my curiosity on what is on the e-tag mag-stripe, a search for "e-tag track2" saved me the time of trying to find my old card reader ;-).
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So what is that supposed to mean?
Is that a thinly veiled insult?
 
OrbitalDawn said:
How? They're exempted from the National Credit Act, therefore they can't legally issue credit, or blacklist you, surely?

There are a few inevitable lawsuits coming up...
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They may try blacklist you based on non-payment...

garp said:
I would imagine that they have to summons you to appear in court for being in contravention of the SANRAL Act first. If you then ignore that summons then you can be arrested. Being in contravention of the SANRAL Act is a relatively minor offence carrying a R1000 fine - I don't think that wouldn't be arrestable by itself?
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They could potentially try and do that to make an example of a few people to try scare the rest of the population into caving.
 
My apologies if this has been discussed before in this thread, but have any of you received any communication from SANRAL, or have any of you contacted them (at an office or via their call centre) to find out what you are owing (since they said it is the user's responsibility to do so) ?
 
Koosi said:
So what is that supposed to mean?
Is that a thinly veiled insult?
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I think he is asking why haven't you shared your site with us - he had to use his "hacking skills" to find the site.
 
Tander said:
I think he is asking why haven't you shared your site with us - he had to use his "hacking skills" to find the site.
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+1 - I think if we can create as much transparency about everything related to e-tolling (if it is how the tags work, how gantries function, what their system does and doesn't do), the better equipped we are to deal with these issues.

With regards to arresting at a roadblock - short answer NO, they can not arrest you - long answer below:

Police officials conducting a roadblock may only legally arrest you for an unpaid speeding / traffic fine if a valid warrant of arrest has been issued against you. A warrant of arrest is normally issued if you have failed to appear in court following the issuing and service of a summons against you.

In terms of Section 39 of the Criminal Procedure Act you have the right to be informed of the reason or cause of your arrest and you have the right to demand a copy of the warrant of arrest whilst at the roadblock. There is no legal provision that you have the right to receive the original warrant as has been suggested by various sources. The police will thereafter have the right to detain you in custody until you are lawfully discharged or released. Should you demand to receive a copy of the warrant and fail to receive it, but should you still be unlawfully detained or arrested by the police you will have the right to bring civil action against the police where you may seek compensation for an unlawful arrest / detention.

World of caution: If you land up in a situation where they want to arrest you, I would comply and not fight it. Your rights will be prejudiced as a matter of course as the police will ignore the right of legal representation, sight of the correct documentation and subsequent illegal detention. Several metro-police departments currently face a number of court actions for damages due to wrongful arrest and detention due to procedural errors. You can be certain that just based on that you will win in the end.
 
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blunomore said:
My apologies if this has been discussed before in this thread, but have any of you received any communication from SANRAL, or have any of you contacted them (at an office or via their call centre) to find out what you are owing (since they said it is the user's responsibility to do so) ?
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Regarding this, I’m also still a bit unsure about the whole invoice thing. Many people have said that they do not have to send an invoice, but my reading of Government Gazette 36911 suggests otherwise:
6. Terms and conditions for payment of toll
...
(4) If an alternate user has used an e-road he, she or it must pay the toll applicable to such use within the time and at the place and subject to the conditions that the Agency may make known and determine.
(5) If an alternate user does not pay the toll contemplated in terms of sub-regulation (4) within the time and at the place and subject to the conditions that the Agency may make known and determine, the Agency must within 32 days after the alternate user has used an e-road but after expiry of the grace period and unless the user has registered, send an invoice to the said user, to the last known address provided in terms of the National Road Traffic Act by such user, reflecting the amount of the toll payable and such invoice shall be paid by the said user on or before the date reflected on the invoice.
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So if I ‘forgot’ to check my outstanding e-toll fees, they’ll send a bill it would seem… The question remains whether they can start to prosecute me before sending me a bill, the point that follows seems to suggest not:
(6) The Agency may follow criminal and civil process to collect all outstanding tolls if, despite an invoice having been sent, the user continues to fail to pay such outstanding tolls within the period stipulated in the invoice or at all
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However, moving on to point 9 bothers me a bit…
(9) Any user of an e-road who, through such use, becomes liable to pay toll may request an invoice from the Agency at any e-toll customer centre, failing which the Agency shall not be obliged to provide invoices to any user, save as provided for elsewhere in these regulations.
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What does this even mean? ‘We don’t have to send you an invoice unless we said we would’ ???

Another thing I’m a bit unsure about: the quoted Gazette is said to contain the following “PROCLAMATION R. 44 Transport Laws and Related Matters Amendment Act (3/2013): Commencement of Act”. Can it be assumed that the information contained in the Gazette is the same as the act, and can there be discrepancies/differences between the two? In short, do I need to go read the actual act as well?
 
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Garyvdh said:
lol... just reading through all the complaints about SANRAL on hellopeter.com....

http://hellopeter.com/search-reports?keyword=SANRAL
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Lol :D

Due to E-toll implementation I am about to loose my future wife. My Girlfriend told me last night that she will not visit me again because of E-toll or I will have to buy her an E-Tag. I didn't sleep the whole night cause I know its a BIG deal as I cannot afford to buy her and Myself an E-tag let alone managing her E-Tag.

Regards
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