Yep, but they'll try nevertheless.
-
Join the MyBroadband community
South Africa’s biggest forum. Discuss, discover, and connect with thousands of members.
-
Question of the Day: If you were buying a TV today, which brand would you choose?
The Gauteng E-tolling Thread
- Thread starter LazyLion
- Start date
- Status
Yep, but they'll try nevertheless.
Ianf1
Expert Member
Part of a PR release found at MG
I'm confused... there seems to be a disconnect between how bad we think things are going for SANRAL and how bad things actually are going for them (or rather their perception of it).
Let's look at the most glaring example:
* SANRAL has collected less than a 10th of more than R500-million in overdue e-toll charges from motorists.
but still
* SANRAL CFO: From a financial point of view the Gauteng e-toll system is performing marginally above expectations.
* SANRAL CEO: ... success of good e-toll collections related to the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project ...
Am I clearly misunderstanding the numbers or is SANRAL surviving quite easily and just not making the huge profits they hoped to out of the GFIP?
Let's look at the most glaring example:
* SANRAL has collected less than a 10th of more than R500-million in overdue e-toll charges from motorists.
but still
* SANRAL CFO: From a financial point of view the Gauteng e-toll system is performing marginally above expectations.
* SANRAL CEO: ... success of good e-toll collections related to the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project ...
Am I clearly misunderstanding the numbers or is SANRAL surviving quite easily and just not making the huge profits they hoped to out of the GFIP?
Smoke and mirrors. SANRAL is pretending everything is fine while Rome is burning.
This "review" is smoke and mirrors. Political posturing, trying to create the appearance of caring about the people. My prediction is that nothing will change, and it will simply escalate. Probably more fear tactics to come.
yeah, I agree, but at least they are themselves creating uncertainty amongst the naive tagged people and might get some to become tagless or stop paying
Sure, there will be a bit of that happening. I just wish I knew what the end game of potential escalation is...
Anyone know if there is any truth to the "gantry cameras won't pick up your plate if you're straddling a lane line, between lanes" rumour?
Anyone know if there is any truth to the "gantry cameras won't pick up your plate if you're straddling a lane line, between lanes" rumour?
Jola
Honorary Master
Tried it, picked me up every time.
that's BS AFAIK, but in any case, I want them to pick me up, send me bills, that I don't get and don't intend paying... just hope that they have a photo of every gantry transaction, if they do take me to court, but I'm not holding my breath
Musiclover08
Senior Member
Cameras will pick up your front and back plates as they face the front and back of the vehicle/traffic flow
I can confirm that it's BS. I finally received my first invoice and I was pictured right in the middle of the lanes.
MrGray
Honorary Master
I suspect that when SANRAL refers to "collections" they are referring to the actual E-Toll transactions captured, in other words, the theoretical billing they have generated, and not to the actual collection of the payments. And this is what Moody's has based their rating on.
SANRAL has shown them that they've generated X billion Rands worth of billing, and everybody is happy for now, BUT in the last information released it surfaced that it cost them R50m to physically collect less than that in outstanding payments, so good luck to them. All they have to show for all their E-Toll collections is an ever growing debtor's book with nowhere near the theoretical amount of cash coming in. At some point this will come to a head as sooner or later investors are going to start asking questions about the lack of actual cash coming in, especially when it approaches the point that SANRAL will have to start writing off bad debt.
Albereth
Honorary Master
There is a device that detects that something has entered the area under the gantry. There is also one that checks that something has left the area. Arguably it should pick up if a bird flies under the gantry and reject whatever data was gathered including whatever the camera took a picture of. Easy.
Now, in order to automate the whole system there needs to be a match between what the detectors see and a photograph. If you are able to switch 3 lanes under the gantry (and that's a bitch at normal speeds) the system will reject the passage because according to their parameters it wasn't a car that passed under the gantry.
Nobody is sitting watching every passage.
It supposedly struggles to film something faster than 160kph
LazyLion
King of de Jungle
DA CONTRADICTS ITSELF OVER E-TOLL PANEL
The DA has given contradictory reactions to Gauteng premier David Makhura's announcement on Thursday about a panel that will assess the impact of e-tolls in the province.
The Democratic Alliance's Gauteng MPL Neil Campbell welcomed Makhura's announcement, while the party's Parliamentary leader Mmusi Maimane described it as a publicity stunt.
Campbell said the panel was an acknowledgement by the African National Congress that e-tolling was not working and that other viable methods could be used to pay for the country's roads.
"This, in conjunction with the DA's call to have the system reviewed in Parliament, will hopefully go a long way towards providing relief to cash-strapped Gauteng motorists, businesses and ordinary residents who are feeling the knock-on effects of the system," he said in a statement.
Maimane, on the other hand, said the only body with the power to legitimately review the e-tolling system was Parliament, through its portfolio committee on transport.
"The people of South Africa need to see action on e-tolls, not a 'talk-shop' in Gauteng that has no legal powers," he said in a statement.
"It is unclear why Transport Minister Dipuo Peters has remained silent on this matter, while premier Makhura continues with this charade."
He called on Peters to show leadership and support the need for the review of e-tolls to take place in Parliament.
Maimane said the terms of reference Makhura announced on Thursday indicated that the panel was not empowered to take any actions against e-tolls.
Earlier, Makhura said government was serious about assessing the impact of e-tolls on Gauteng residents and the economy.
"If we were not serious we wouldn't announce that this matter required our attention... We wouldn't come this far," Makhura told reporters in Johannesburg.
He announced the names of 10 of the 15 members of a panel that would examine the effect e-tolling had on the province. It would meet for the first time next Thursday.
The panel members are: chairman Muxe Nkondo, Patricia Hanekom, John Ngcebetsha, Vuyo Mahlathi, Luci Abrahams, Fiona Tregenna, Anna Mokgokong, John Sampson, Lauretta Teffo, and Chris Malikane.
Five more members were expected to be announced later, Makhura said.
The panel was tasked with inviting proposals and submissions from Gauteng residents on proposed solutions to e-tolling. It would submit its findings and recommendations to the provincial government.
The panel was expected to present monthly reports, and final reports and recommendations to the Gauteng provincial government by November 30, 2014.
On September 25, President Jacob Zuma signed into law the Transport Laws and Related Matters Amendment Bill, giving the go-ahead for e-tolling in Gauteng.
The e-toll system started operating across Gauteng on December 3, following several court challenges and widespread public opposition.
Makhura said those who saw the panel as the ruling African National Party's attempt at doing damage control were cynics and "playing cheap politics".
There had been speculation that the ANC's loss of support in Gauteng during the May 7 general elections was partly due to the implementation of e-tolls.
Makhura urged Gauteng motorists to continue to pay their e-toll bills while government worked at finding a lasting solution.
Source : Sapa /mr/gq/lp/ks
Date : 10 Jul 2014 17:32
The DA has given contradictory reactions to Gauteng premier David Makhura's announcement on Thursday about a panel that will assess the impact of e-tolls in the province.
The Democratic Alliance's Gauteng MPL Neil Campbell welcomed Makhura's announcement, while the party's Parliamentary leader Mmusi Maimane described it as a publicity stunt.
Campbell said the panel was an acknowledgement by the African National Congress that e-tolling was not working and that other viable methods could be used to pay for the country's roads.
"This, in conjunction with the DA's call to have the system reviewed in Parliament, will hopefully go a long way towards providing relief to cash-strapped Gauteng motorists, businesses and ordinary residents who are feeling the knock-on effects of the system," he said in a statement.
Maimane, on the other hand, said the only body with the power to legitimately review the e-tolling system was Parliament, through its portfolio committee on transport.
"The people of South Africa need to see action on e-tolls, not a 'talk-shop' in Gauteng that has no legal powers," he said in a statement.
"It is unclear why Transport Minister Dipuo Peters has remained silent on this matter, while premier Makhura continues with this charade."
He called on Peters to show leadership and support the need for the review of e-tolls to take place in Parliament.
Maimane said the terms of reference Makhura announced on Thursday indicated that the panel was not empowered to take any actions against e-tolls.
Earlier, Makhura said government was serious about assessing the impact of e-tolls on Gauteng residents and the economy.
"If we were not serious we wouldn't announce that this matter required our attention... We wouldn't come this far," Makhura told reporters in Johannesburg.
He announced the names of 10 of the 15 members of a panel that would examine the effect e-tolling had on the province. It would meet for the first time next Thursday.
The panel members are: chairman Muxe Nkondo, Patricia Hanekom, John Ngcebetsha, Vuyo Mahlathi, Luci Abrahams, Fiona Tregenna, Anna Mokgokong, John Sampson, Lauretta Teffo, and Chris Malikane.
Five more members were expected to be announced later, Makhura said.
The panel was tasked with inviting proposals and submissions from Gauteng residents on proposed solutions to e-tolling. It would submit its findings and recommendations to the provincial government.
The panel was expected to present monthly reports, and final reports and recommendations to the Gauteng provincial government by November 30, 2014.
On September 25, President Jacob Zuma signed into law the Transport Laws and Related Matters Amendment Bill, giving the go-ahead for e-tolling in Gauteng.
The e-toll system started operating across Gauteng on December 3, following several court challenges and widespread public opposition.
Makhura said those who saw the panel as the ruling African National Party's attempt at doing damage control were cynics and "playing cheap politics".
There had been speculation that the ANC's loss of support in Gauteng during the May 7 general elections was partly due to the implementation of e-tolls.
Makhura urged Gauteng motorists to continue to pay their e-toll bills while government worked at finding a lasting solution.
Source : Sapa /mr/gq/lp/ks
Date : 10 Jul 2014 17:32
MrGray
Honorary Master
NPA to nail e-toll defaulters
July 15 2014 at 12:14pm
By Anna Cox
Johannesburg - And so the fight begins. Over a million motorists face criminal records for failing to pay their e-tolls following an announcement this morning that two prosecutors have been appointed to start taking action against motorists who have failed to pay their bills.
The Justice Project South Africa said people convicted of non-payment would have a criminal record for life, even if the e-tolls were scrapped. But the Opposition to Urban Tolling Alliance has vowed to help the first person prosecuted, funds permitting.
Last week Gauteng Premier David Makhura appointed a team to review the impact of e-tolls. Outa founder Wayne Duvenage said his organisation had approached the South African National Roads Agency asking them to withhold prosecutions until the findings of the panel were released at the end of November, but they declined to do so.
JPSA Chairman Howard Dembovsky said the news of the appointment of prosecutors came as no surprise.
“Our laws apply to the ‘here and now’, and not retrospectively. Therefore, should people be prosecuted and convicted whilst the panel of review does its job and a conclusion reached that e-tolling should be scrapped and replaced with another, those convictions would stand.
“The Sanral strategy of prosecuting e-toll defaulters/detractors in criminal courts relies heavily on convictions being attained by the National Prosecuting Authority and, since South Africa does still have a constitution and functional courts, convictions are not a foregone conclusion.
“As things stand, there are more than a million people who are going to have to be prosecuted and two prosecutors, operating in the already overburdened criminal justice court system, don’t stand any chance of making a significant dent in this figure,” he said.
FEAR-MONGERING
Sanral’s e-tolls marketing strategy had always involved fear-mongering by threatening people with criminal records and other life-changing consequences for resisting e-tolling and could not hope to get compliance without it, he said.
Dembovsky said what was intriguing, however, was why the NPA would risk prosecuting people when an inquiry was ongoing.
“Obviously, the prospect of being turned into artificial criminals by Sanral and the NPA will have a skewing effect on any deliberations and assessments by Makhura’s panel of review since people may indeed be concerned by this latest scare tactic and rush off to pay their outstanding e-tolls in order to avoid prosecution.
NOT JOKING
“However, what doesn’t seem to have been considered is that there is a significantly large contingent of people who are not joking about refusing to pay e-tolls and are prepared to face the consequences and/or simply cannot afford the outrageous sums of money Sanral demands from them,” he said.
Dembovsky said he believed a properly mounted criminal defence would lead to the acquittal of those accused of this so-called crime.
“We therefore urge anybody summoned by the NPA to approach Outa the second that they receive summons,” he said.
Spokesman for the NPA Nathi Mncube said their job was simply to prosecute in terms of the Sanral act, which made it a criminal offence not to pay e-tolls.
“The NPA will not be collecting on the debt. Sanral would have to institute its own civil proceedings to do so. It’s nothing new, we have been prosecuting people who don’t pay tolls for years,” he said.
The Star
July 15 2014 at 12:14pm
By Anna Cox
Johannesburg - And so the fight begins. Over a million motorists face criminal records for failing to pay their e-tolls following an announcement this morning that two prosecutors have been appointed to start taking action against motorists who have failed to pay their bills.
The Justice Project South Africa said people convicted of non-payment would have a criminal record for life, even if the e-tolls were scrapped. But the Opposition to Urban Tolling Alliance has vowed to help the first person prosecuted, funds permitting.
Last week Gauteng Premier David Makhura appointed a team to review the impact of e-tolls. Outa founder Wayne Duvenage said his organisation had approached the South African National Roads Agency asking them to withhold prosecutions until the findings of the panel were released at the end of November, but they declined to do so.
JPSA Chairman Howard Dembovsky said the news of the appointment of prosecutors came as no surprise.
“Our laws apply to the ‘here and now’, and not retrospectively. Therefore, should people be prosecuted and convicted whilst the panel of review does its job and a conclusion reached that e-tolling should be scrapped and replaced with another, those convictions would stand.
“The Sanral strategy of prosecuting e-toll defaulters/detractors in criminal courts relies heavily on convictions being attained by the National Prosecuting Authority and, since South Africa does still have a constitution and functional courts, convictions are not a foregone conclusion.
“As things stand, there are more than a million people who are going to have to be prosecuted and two prosecutors, operating in the already overburdened criminal justice court system, don’t stand any chance of making a significant dent in this figure,” he said.
FEAR-MONGERING
Sanral’s e-tolls marketing strategy had always involved fear-mongering by threatening people with criminal records and other life-changing consequences for resisting e-tolling and could not hope to get compliance without it, he said.
Dembovsky said what was intriguing, however, was why the NPA would risk prosecuting people when an inquiry was ongoing.
“Obviously, the prospect of being turned into artificial criminals by Sanral and the NPA will have a skewing effect on any deliberations and assessments by Makhura’s panel of review since people may indeed be concerned by this latest scare tactic and rush off to pay their outstanding e-tolls in order to avoid prosecution.
NOT JOKING
“However, what doesn’t seem to have been considered is that there is a significantly large contingent of people who are not joking about refusing to pay e-tolls and are prepared to face the consequences and/or simply cannot afford the outrageous sums of money Sanral demands from them,” he said.
Dembovsky said he believed a properly mounted criminal defence would lead to the acquittal of those accused of this so-called crime.
“We therefore urge anybody summoned by the NPA to approach Outa the second that they receive summons,” he said.
Spokesman for the NPA Nathi Mncube said their job was simply to prosecute in terms of the Sanral act, which made it a criminal offence not to pay e-tolls.
“The NPA will not be collecting on the debt. Sanral would have to institute its own civil proceedings to do so. It’s nothing new, we have been prosecuting people who don’t pay tolls for years,” he said.
The Star
MrGray
Honorary Master
Bwahahah. Two prosecutors. One million defaulters. Yeah, that should work.
National Poephol Authority (Nathi Mncube) said:
For years? That is obviously not etrolling non-payment and the statement implies that there must have been quite a few people over the years that drove straight through the booms at normal tollgate booths.
OrbitalDawn
Ulysses Everett McGill
Heard an interesting call on 702 today.
Guy said he asked to pay (in cash), but they said he has to register to pay. Now the law doesn't state registration is mandatory, even if having to pay to use the roads is. So how can they 'force' you to register, in order to pay (which is a legal requirement), when having to register is not?
Guy said he asked to pay (in cash), but they said he has to register to pay. Now the law doesn't state registration is mandatory, even if having to pay to use the roads is. So how can they 'force' you to register, in order to pay (which is a legal requirement), when having to register is not?
- Status