Time to clear the decks...

porchrat

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:wtf:
Didn't have to search far to find this little gem
That is a response clearly directed at one specific person that I have had extensive experience with. Totally irrelevant. Apache IS anti-science. If you had had a little more experience dealing with Apache you would know this.

Doesn't mean all Christians are. Far from it. Some of the people I consider to have been the greatest scientists the world has ever known were devout Christians.

Nice try though. Even if you managed to find an example (I'm guessing from my youth where I was obviously far less aware of how silly generalisations can be) it still doesn't excuse your attempt to justify your pathetic behaviour with "but they do it too!!". What are you 5?!?

Making yourself look classier and classier with every post. Keep it up. Wild assumptions about people make everyone respect you more buddy and don't at all make you look like an ass trust me. :)
 
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Techne

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Not what I am saying. Religion IS being taught in classrooms. For example chemical evolution (abiogenesis, etc.) and that evolution is a blind purposeless process. The objections are therefor either on the grounds of teaching competing theories or because it could prevent teaching religion.

I have no problem if religion isn't taught but either teach no religion or all religions. A claim about the origin of life is not only something that no valid scientific theory deals with and so is nonscientific but is also irresponsible.
I wouldn't call it "religion". Rather, just bad metaphysics masqueraded as empirical science (the balded part that is). As for abiogenesis, while there is no solution to the conundrum as of yet, I see no reason why abiogenesis as an explanation for the the emergence of life poses any kind of problem for theism or religion. Again, as long as people don't mix metaphysics and abiogenesis, then abiogenesis as an empirical hypothesis is still that, just an interesting hypothesis, and even if true, no problem for theism, creation or religion..

And this is you being classy?
 

porchrat

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And this is you being classy?
Not at all. Just pointing out how ridiculous his behaviour is is all. Worse then the justification based on "but look THEY do it too!". I mean come on how insipid a justification can you possibly get.
 

Geriatrix

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You mean situations where it has been shown a failure? There are many e.g.

Halton Arp has for decades contended that the Hubble expansion is a figment of the imagination citing as evidence ample examples of high redshift quasars that are physically connected to low redshift galaxies. He got in return an unsigned letter judging his research as "without value" and refusing further allocation time. A number of well-known astronomers spoke up on his behalf to no avail.
H. Arp, D. Russell, A Possible Relationship between Quasars and Clusters of Galaxies, Astrophysical Journal 549, p. 802-819 (March 10 2001}
H. Arp, Quasars, Redshifts, and Controversies, Cambridge University Press, 1989
H. Arp, Seeing Red: Redshifts, Cosmology and Academic Science , Apeiron, 1998

Thomas Van Flandern's paper The Top 30 Problems with the Big Bang, Apeiron 9,2 (april 2002) concludes:

Does this sound familiar? He continues...
Those have nothing to do with evolution. Those are cosmology.


How many times we hear the excuse that this is how science works. Not everybody thinks so because it's not how science works. If a theory can't predict something before it happens it's essentially worthless.
You're confusing scientific method with religious dogma.
A more or less accurate framework is used and developed and improved upon in science. Or discarded if an even more accurate one is devised. It's called learning and progress.
Religion is the one that is invalidated if one single variable is proven wrong. Well, certain religious. And that's the problem we seem have here.


Not what I am saying. Religion IS being taught in classrooms.
That was exactly what you were saying. You were praising the Louisiana State Education Board for what they did. But ok, lets leave it at that.

For example chemical evolution (abiogenesis, etc.) and that evolution is a blind purposeless process. The objections are therefor either on the grounds of teaching competing theories or because it could prevent teaching religion.I have no problem if religion isn't taught but either teach no religion or all religions. A claim about the origin of life is not only something that no valid scientific theory deals with and so is nonscientific but is also irresponsible.
Here's the problem.
You cannot blindly ban entire areas of research because of your religious beliefs.

Buddhists, for example, don't care about this whole evolution, creation debate. To them it's irrelevant and, frankly, stupid.
So say now a Buddhist scientist is interested in perusing a career in microbiology where he wants to study and trace back how live formed and progressed through time. And eventually he wants to gather data, study and try to replicate all these cool things he learns. Now you want to stop his research because a small part your belief system may be invalidated by his findings(never mind the other bits in the Bible that science has systematically moved from 'fact' to 'metaphorical' in the minds of its believers). Can you see how illogical and dishonest that is?

So what is the solution?
Well, if you don't want your children studying the sciences of biology, evolution and, looking at the above, cosmology, then don't let them study it. Have them study theology instead. No harm, not fuss. Why do you have to try and try and encroach on the rights of what others want to study and research?
 
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porchrat

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Has nothing to do with me being classy. He is the one making stupid assumptions about people and then defending his actions with idiocy.

Unless you disagree? You think he is behaving like a real champ here?
 

Geriatrix

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I wouldn't call it "religion". Rather, just bad metaphysics masqueraded as empirical science (the balded part that is). As for abiogenesis, while there is no solution to the conundrum as of yet, I see no reason why abiogenesis as an explanation for the the emergence of life poses any kind of problem for theism or religion. Again, as long as people don't mix metaphysics and abiogenesis, then abiogenesis as an empirical hypothesis is still that, just an interesting hypothesis, and even if true, no problem for theism, creation or religion..
Well said.
+1

Publish the data, keep personal musing to oneself.
 

Techne

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Has nothing to do with me being classy. He is the one making stupid assumptions about people and then defending his actions with idiocy.

Unless you disagree? You think he is behaving like a real champ here?
Wow, that was a fast edit :D. Don't complain about other's classless actions/words if you are being classless yourself. At least for the sake of people's irony meters anyway.
 

porchrat

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Wow, that was a fast edit :D. Don't complain about other's classless actions/words if you are being classless yourself. At least for the sake of people's irony meters anyway.
yea decided to take a different tack with it. :p

I mean why bother to defend myself here. He is the muppet making baseless assumptions. Not me.

Pointing out his idiotic assumptions about me as a person seems pretty classy to me. You are of course entitled to your opinion but we are going to have to agree to disagree here. That and you are also going to have to never again point out when someone makes a baseless assumption about you lest you be labelled 'unclassy', or a hypocrite take your pick ;).
 

Techne

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yea decided to take a different tack with it. :p

I mean why bother to defend myself here. He is the muppet making baseless assumptions. Not me.

Pointing out his idiotic assumptions about me as a person seems pretty classy to me. You are of course entitled to your opinion but we are going to have to agree to disagree here. That and you are also going to have to never again point out when someone makes a baseless assumption about you lest you be labelled 'unclassy', or a hypocrite take your pick ;).
You can point out other people's incorrect assumptions about yourself without labelling them classless AND being classless yourself.
 

copacetic

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Every time I venture into this thread, the harder it is to have the slightest clue what's it's all about.
 

porchrat

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You can point out other people's incorrect assumptions about yourself without labelling them classless AND being classless yourself.
I never labelled him classless. :confused:

I implied that that particular piece of behaviour was classless (it is). Not that he was necessarily classless. Frankly he seems like a classy dude and ironically has spent this entire thread disagreeing with what he sees as baseless assumptions of materialism only to make an assumption about me without even knowing me. Considering the way he has behaved in this thread up until this point I had thought he would just recognise the error on his part, apologise and move on. I am unpleasantly surprised by his attempt to defend the behaviour.
 

Techne

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I never labelled him classless. :confused:

I implied that that particular piece of behaviour was classless (it is). Not that he was necessarily classless. Frankly he seems like a classy dude and ironically has spent this entire thread disagreeing with what he sees as baseless assumptions of materialism only to make an assumption about me without even knowing me. Considering the way he has behaved in this thread up until this point I had thought he would just recognise the error on his part, apologise and move on. I am unpleasantly surprised by his attempt to defend the behaviour.
He may feel the same i suppose..
 

porchrat

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He may feel the same i suppose..
He could easily have avoided the entire mess. There is no credible way to justify what he did. He could very easily have just apologised when he was obviously in the wrong.

Sure I could have worded my post a little better. I was offended and got needlessly emotive and for that I apologise. Nobody likes being judged before someone bothers to actually get to know them. That in no way justifies his behaviour though.
 

Swa

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That is a response clearly directed at one specific person that I have had extensive experience with. Totally irrelevant. Apache IS anti-science. If you had had a little more experience dealing with Apache you would know this.
Yeah whatever. Read it again. It sure sounds like you are judging him on the basis of being a creationist. What you seem to forget is that one can go back through posts so my response is not a "mind reading" as you claim but a conclusion based on your previous posts. Iow I would not have made it if I knew jack about you. In your defense though you seem less entrenched in it that some other evolutionists here are. Or have gotten older and realised your ideas are not reality but just ideas about reality.

Doesn't mean all Christians are. Far from it. Some of the people I consider to have been the greatest scientists the world has ever known were devout Christians.
Let me guess. None of them were creationists?

Nice try though. Even if you managed to find an example (I'm guessing from my youth where I was obviously far less aware of how silly generalisations can be) it still doesn't excuse your attempt to justify your pathetic behaviour with "but they do it too!!". What are you 5?!?
You really should get familiar with this
 

Swa

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I wouldn't call it "religion". Rather, just bad metaphysics masqueraded as empirical science (the balded part that is). As for abiogenesis, while there is no solution to the conundrum as of yet, I see no reason why abiogenesis as an explanation for the the emergence of life poses any kind of problem for theism or religion. Again, as long as people don't mix metaphysics and abiogenesis, then abiogenesis as an empirical hypothesis is still that, just an interesting hypothesis, and even if true, no problem for theism, creation or religion..
The problem with that is it's legally defined as religion. When one thinks of religion it's usually the idea of someone praying to a god. But that ignores that there are non-theistic religions like Buddhism. Traditionally the origin and purpose of life is a religious question so can only have a religious answer. As for abiogenesis there are a multitude of ideas and no valid theory so teaching it can't have a scientific motivation.

Those have nothing to do with evolution. Those are cosmology.
Though evolution is the biggest culprit it's not the only one (the second biggest is cosmology) and the problems are actually in science. There are many more examples in almost every science.

You're confusing scientific method with religious dogma.
A more or less accurate framework is used and developed and improved upon in science. Or discarded if an even more accurate one is devised. It's called learning and progress.
Religion is the one that is invalidated if one single variable is proven wrong. Well, certain religious. And that's the problem we seem have here.
No confusion here at all. For a theory to be of value it must be able to predict with reasonable accuracy instead of adjusting with every discovery and more importantly that those adjustments be confined to a few parameters of the theory. It has been stated before by some that any valid theory must have an acceptable degree of change otherwise if it can adapt to almost anything it can't be falsifiable, one of the cornerstones of science.

The BB theory has made few actual predictions and those were mostly inaccurate. To explain what has been observed a number of fudge factors have been introduced like dark matter, dark energy, the inflation field, quantum ripples. Evolution never predicted the correct fossil record, it adapted to it. This again failed to predict the genetic relationships and DNA instead lead to another reclassification. The question here is why is it primarily the life and natural sciences that's riddled with problems. A conscious or subconscious religious dogmatism?

That was exactly what you were saying. You were praising the Louisiana State Education Board for what they did. But ok, lets leave it at that.
And can you find any fault with it? It specifically forbids teaching religion and encourages critical thinking so if anything frees children from religious dogma and scientific indoctrination. Perhaps that is their real objection.

Here's the problem.
You cannot blindly ban entire areas of research because of your religious beliefs.
Where did I make this claim? Evolution doesn't and cannot say anything of it being "a blind purposeless process" so it's an unscientific claim and according the the inclusive definition of religion a religious one. So far the opposition has actually displayed every sign of wanting to ban entire areas of research because of their religious beliefs.

Buddhists, for example, don't care about this whole evolution, creation debate. To them it's irrelevant and, frankly, stupid.
So say now a Buddhist scientist is interested in perusing a career in microbiology where he wants to study and trace back how live formed and progressed through time. And eventually he wants to gather data, study and try to replicate all these cool things he learns. Now you want to stop his research because a small part your belief system may be invalidated by his findings(never mind the other bits in the Bible that science has systematically moved from 'fact' to 'metaphorical' in the minds of its believers). Can you see how illogical and dishonest that is?

So what is the solution?
Well, if you don't want your children studying the sciences of biology, evolution and, looking at the above, cosmology, then don't let them study it. Have them study theology instead. No harm, not fuss. Why do you have to try and try and encroach on the rights of what others want to study and research?
I don't know where you pull this from
 

porchrat

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Yeah whatever. Read it again. It sure sounds like you are judging him on the basis of being a creationist.
I'm judging him based on being Apache. After all I am the one that wrote it. If I don't know what I was saying then who the fsck does.


What you seem to forget is that one can go back through posts so my response is not a "mind reading" as you claim but a conclusion based on your previous posts. Iow I would not have made it if I knew jack about you.
Unfortunately for you (and this is why I took such offence at what you said) you are flat out wrong about me. I regard the theory of evolution as the best explanation we have so far. Not the perfect explanation. I'm sure as with most scientific theories there is plenty of room for improvement. As our knowledge grows so will our theories be refined or discarded altogether for more accurate ones.

This is what science is all about.


Let me guess. None of them were creationists?
I'm sure plenty were. After all science was happening long before Charles Darwin and up until then creationism was the big thing.

Creationism only influences certain fields of science. Even then as long as you are prepared to leave your beliefs at the door and remain objective then you can be an OK scientist in those fields and still be a creationist. I think it is highly unlikely that I will ever encounter a person like this but I suppose it isn't impossible.

You could be a creationist and be a computer scientist for example because it as little to nothing to do with your research. Still I wouldn't say that today you could be a great scientist if you are a creationist in this day and age because it means you haven't employed a scientific approach throughout your life. To be a literal creationist you have to discard huge portions of our observable universe. A great scientist shouldn't be doing this.


You really should get familiar with this
LOL I never judged you without knowing you. I make it a habit not to do that to people on purpose. Before I say something about what people think I flat out ask them what they think. That is the responsible thing to do.

Sorry but that doesn't apply in this situation. Again nice try though ;).
 

Swa

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Typical. Somebody posts something serious and the super-religious trashes the conversation with ideas on why other religious people believe, people coming in defending a fallacy and claiming they were then unrighteously accused of committing the fallacy, accusations of mind reading etc.

Well done in yet again acting like religious nuts while sweeping the issues under the carpet hoping they would just go away. And then they want everyone to believe in their [-]fairy tales[/-] "theories" of reality. :erm:
 
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