To emmigrate or not?

[Skinner]

Since this seem to be a hot topic nowadays, let's summarise the common facts that should be applicable to almost everyone that is considering leaving SA.

Those from the other camp, namely those in favour of emmigrating, are naturally also welcome to post their "ADVANTAGES OF EMMIGRATING" here. Please no insults - let's maintain civil discussion.

*** DISADVANTAGES of EMMIGRATING ***

In SA: you know how things work, you are familiar with all relevant procedures, customes, cultures, etc. from buying a house to applying at a school for your kids. You have a network of contacts, friends and family to help you with things.
Overseas: total abyss of the unknown. Unfamiliarity FTL. Takes you ages to get to know how things work, step by step. Very stressfull and little or no people to help you. You basically have to start from the bottom.

In SA: If you stay in Gauteng and the crime bothers you, moving to the Cape will lessen your chances of being a victim, and costs won't be so high.
Overseas: Emmigration will likely cost all of your life savings, and the little you have left over will be worthless in the 1st world country's currency.

In SA: you likely already have a credit record and if you're clean, you may purchase assets on debt. Banks should approve under reasonable circumstances.
Overseas: your clean SA credit record means jack-all. You have to have a work and some time to show a stable income before you can get lucky and apply for any sort of loans. That means sweating it out on beans and no-name milk for the first few months.

In SA: you know the employment environment, your only stumbleblock is AA and BEE if you are white, unless you are in an industry that is unaffected by it.
Overseas: there is no racial discrimination but you are basically regarded as an worthless immigrant from a 3rd world country with a worthless 3rd world currency. You have to work yourself to the bone for months or years to prove yourself to your employer, before you can expect to earn any respect OR raise OR promotion. Again, you basically have to start from the bottom.

In SA: Your work is challenging but fun, inspiring, and there is still some humanity involved between co-workers themselves and also with the boss.
Overseas: You've heard of those inhuman scenes in ancient Egypt where slaves were worked to death and whipped? Well, after 6 month in your new job overseas, you'll be daydreaming of those scenes, longing for them.

In SA: you can practise your culture with like-minded friends and family like and where you did your whole life.
Overseas: you have to practise your culture on your own in your small flat. Or with one or two other Saffers, assuming you have time for each other.

In SA: things are still cheap.
Overseas: you will pay through your head for nearly everything you were used to as being cheap in SA. Fuel being one of the best examples.

In SA: no social taxes. If you have no problem in SA, you don't have to pay anything.
Overseas: you will pay your butt off on social taxes. Basically you pay for other people's problems. If you are healthy and have no problems, you basically pay for the problems of others. And I'm not talking Mickey Mouse money here.

In SA: beaurocracy has little or no meaning.
Overseas: you will spend many sleepless nights filling in endless forms to apply for things you'd never imagine so much paperwork was required. OR you'll spend those same hours standing in cold public office cues.

In SA: most people are friendly, open and heartwarm.
Overseas: likely you'll get arrested for touching an acquaintance's kid on the head. Get the picture?

In SA: people are hopeful and ambitious.
Overseas: people look like they are ready to die any moment now.

In SA: you have some chance of getting shot by someone else.
Overseas: you have a higher chance of getting shot by yourself.

 

[CrzWaco]

Brilant haha

 

[Badprop]

I can not speak for any other country than the one I moved to, so please, this is not a world wide generalization, but is pertinent to New Zealand and my own experience.
Immigration is not easy and if you think it is going to be a walk in the park you will be back in SA within the year. So there you have it right Skinner but I disagree with the following and again this is personal experience.
We have been here now 6 months and we have a great support system. No family but friends, good friends who have given us everything we needed to survive until our container arrived. The difference with SAn’s here and there is that the people understand what you are going through and everyone helps if they see you have a need.

Family we see every single day through Skype.

Paperwork? Tax number took 15 minutes, re order of tax card 10- minutes on the phone. Registration of car and license, done online. Telephone, electricity, done via phone no paper work. Bank account 15 minutes, debit orders done on the phone. Drivers license 20 minutes. Incorrect tax forms sent to me, 10 minutes on the phone and sorted.

Car bought on Saturday 4pm and only payed the guy on Monday..... yeah I still can’t believe he gave me the car without paying.

Crime? 47 murders last year. I parked on the wrong side of the road facing the oncoming traffic and got a fine, these cops don’t have enough work obviously. For a realistic view read the NZHerald.

I have been in a job for 3 months and applied for another closer to home, yes 18km is now far away! Got the job and starting next month. Don’t come here with your I know better or I drive a better car attitude, these people work hard and respect is earned not bought here.
Yes it is different; yes it was hard work in the beginning. But I took my kids for a walk in the nature reserve next to our house yesterday and not once did I look over my shoulder. I don’t even have a front gate or burglar bars. There is still a lot of good in South Africa and I don’t talk negatives about the country to anyone. But my kids are safe and I can sleep at night not worrying about security. It takes guts to pick up and go and anyone who thinks it is a walk in the park has no clue what they are talking about. If you going to live on rands, you are going to battle. The sooner you earn $ ,the easier life gets.
Each have their own reasons for coming over or staying on that side both have their pro's and con's. But before you do immigrate, research, read and don't be an ostrich.

 

[MacNabs]

In SA: you know how things work, you are familiar with all relevant procedures, customes, cultures, etc. from buying a house to applying at a school for your kids. You have a network of contacts, friends and family to help you with things.
Overseas: total abyss of the unknown. Unfamiliarity FTL. Takes you ages to get to know how things work, step by step. Very stressfull and little or no people to help you. You basically have to start from the bottom.

In SA: If you stay in Gauteng and the crime bothers you, moving to the Cape will lessen your chances of being a victim, and costs won't be so high.
Overseas: Emmigration will likely cost all of your life savings, and the little you have left over will be worthless in the 1st world country's currency.

True, it takes a “little” while in getting to know how things work. However, dealing with the way “things DO NOT work” in SA its far easier, in fact a privilege finding out how things work here in New Zealand than spending hours on end trying to sort out little things like Drivers licences, anything from home affairs, electricity problems, Telkom battles with broadband etc etc.. the list is endless. Finding out how things worked on this side had no effect on our stress levels, my stress levels were at witts end in SA just trying to get basic services sorted out. As for the moving to CT thing, been there tried it. Crime in CT is no less than Gauteng these days. Emigration is expensive, but its all made up after the first year, after that you are living much better than you ever would have been able to do in SA. SA culture no longer interests me, in fact I am glad I am rid of it. Family and friends are all in the process of moving to NZ or AUS, some of them are already here.

In SA: you likely already have a credit record and if you're clean, you may purchase assets on debt. Banks should approve under reasonable circumstances.
Overseas: your clean SA credit record means jack-all. You have to have a work and some time to show a stable income before you can get lucky and apply for any sort of loans. That means sweating it out on beans and no-name milk for the first few months.

In SA: you know the employment environment, your only stumbleblock is AA and BEE if you are white, unless you are in an industry that is unaffected by it.
Overseas: there is no racial discrimination but you are basically regarded as an worthless immigrant from a 3rd world country with a worthless 3rd world currency. You have to work yourself to the bone for months or years to prove yourself to your employer, before you can expect to earn any respect OR raise OR promotion. Again, you basically have to start from the bottom.

Moving overseas give you the chance to start again on a new credit history, here in NZ I have been offered all sorts of credit ranging from credit cards to personal loans, not a home loan though until one has residency. All it takes is a employment letter and a bank account to where your salary is paid. Its actually scary, because I could probably wind up with a ton of debt here if I actually wanted it. Sweating in out on beans and no-name milk? Yea right! AA and BEE is not a just a stumble block, its pushing white people out of work and making it increasingly harder for pale males to find work. PS us South Africans are really highly valued here in NZ, ask anybody from NZ and they will tell you the same story. Working in an environment with no BEE/AA bullsh1t, means you can go one way only in your career and that’s up.

In SA: you can practise your culture with like-minded friends and family like and where you did your whole life.
Overseas: you have to practise your culture on your own in your small flat. Or with one or two other Saffers, assuming you have time for each other.

What culture are you talking about? Slaughtering cows on the sidewalk, hijacking? Give some examples, please define SA culture? We have friends here in NZ, all South African, meeting new South Africans migrants nearly weekly, in fact there are so many Saffas here in NZ one cannot even speak Afrikaans in order to speak in private, chances are somebody will understand you. Its like we still in SA. Depending on where you emigrate to yes things can be very different. IE SA and Canada or SA and the Far East, but here in NZ we are surrounded with SA culture, braaing etc etc.. (if braaing is what you mean represents SA culture)

In SA: things are still cheap.
Overseas: you will pay through your head for nearly everything you were used to as being cheap in SA. Fuel being one of the best examples.

Fuel here in NZ is currently R11 per litre, not far off especially because I make use of good efficient public transport. I fill up the car once a month here in NZ, in SA I use to fill it up 4 times a month so by those standards its way more expensive in SA. Public transport here does not cost an arm and a leg either. Food may be a bit more expensive here too, but I am earning twice as much as I was in SA.

In SA: no social taxes. If you have no problem in SA, you don't have to pay anything.
Overseas: you will pay your butt off on social taxes. Basically you pay for other people's problems. If you are healthy and have no problems, you basically pay for the problems of others. And I'm not talking Mickey Mouse money here.

Huh? And SA is immune to this? Where do you suppose all the townships are getting their free houses/electricity from? If you are working in SA and you paying TAX, you paying for it out of your own pocket.

In SA: beaurocracy has little or no meaning.
Overseas: you will spend many sleepless nights filling in endless forms to apply for things you'd never imagine so much paperwork was required. OR you'll spend those same hours standing in cold public office cues.

Its all done on the Net, and your residence application is broken up into a couple of stages, so its some work here and there. The only problems I did have was getting the right documentation from SA homeAffairs, and the SAPS for my police clearance certificates, spent lots of time in home affairs in SA, not too cold but very dirty it was. The only time I have had to go into a public office here was when we went for our residence interview. The rest was all done online.

In SA: most people are friendly, open and heartwarm.
Overseas: likely you'll get arrested for touching an acquaintance's kid on the head. Get the picture?

People here in NZ are very friendly, in SA if you speak to somebody they rude and they will probably think you trying to rob them. enough of this gobble gobble now. You sucking rubbish facts from your thumb and clearly don’t know what you talking about.

In SA: people are hopeful and ambitious.
Overseas: people look like they are ready to die any moment now.

Here in NZ there are lots of old people, I actually find it funny! Walking all over the place, all of them out and about, not worried about crime. There is a big population of old people here which indicates one thing, the health system is reliable to them and is helping them, unlike the stories you hear about old people in SA. I would hate to be old in SA and feel really sorry for old people battling it out in SA. You cannot rely on the public health system, even medical aid for that matter because your funds will dry up so quickly. My gran and grandfather are fine examples, their pension does not even cover the full medical aid for both of the,, they have to rely on their other savings to fund their medical aid because relying on the public health system is not an option.

In SA: you have some chance of getting shot by someone else.
Overseas: you have a higher chance of getting shot by yourself.

Just over 40 murders per year in NZ, 95% of them solved in the same year. Over 50 murders per day in SA. I rest my case dude. I would say you have a very high chance of being shot in SA. Not sure why I would want to shoot myself though? Maybe in the foot yes for not using my head and getting out of SA sooner.

As a side note you do not mention all the things as to why people are leaving SA in droves, AA/BEE is on top of that list along with crime and government incompetence and corruption, The uncertainty of Zuma and all that is not worth the gamble to just hang around in SA, live in hope and believe that my family would be immune to all of this.

If you are confused about emigrating ask yourself where you would rather be, I hate to believe SA is getting worse, but I believe that things are going to get far worse for everyone. However, I would rather be here in NZ and be wrong about this assumption than be in SA and be right about it.

 

[Skinner]

I can not speak for any other country than the one I moved to, so please, this is not a world wide generalization, but is pertinent to New Zealand and my own experience.
Immigration is not easy and if you think it is going to be a walk in the park you will be back in SA within the year. So there you have it right Skinner but I disagree with the following and again this is personal experience.
We have been here now 6 months and we have a great support system. No family but friends, good friends who have given us everything we needed to survive until our container arrived. The difference with SAn’s here and there is that the people understand what you are going through and everyone helps if they see you have a need.

Family we see every single day through Skype.

Paperwork? Tax number took 15 minutes, re order of tax card 10- minutes on the phone. Registration of car and license, done online. Telephone, electricity, done via phone no paper work. Bank account 15 minutes, debit orders done on the phone. Drivers license 20 minutes. Incorrect tax forms sent to me, 10 minutes on the phone and sorted.

Car bought on Saturday 4pm and only payed the guy on Monday..... yeah I still can’t believe he gave me the car without paying.

Crime? 47 murders last year. I parked on the wrong side of the road facing the oncoming traffic and got a fine, these cops don’t have enough work obviously. For a realistic view read the NZHerald.

I have been in a job for 3 months and applied for another closer to home, yes 18km is now far away! Got the job and starting next month. Don’t come here with your I know better or I drive a better car attitude, these people work hard and respect is earned not bought here.
Yes it is different; yes it was hard work in the beginning. But I took my kids for a walk in the nature reserve next to our house yesterday and not once did I look over my shoulder. I don’t even have a front gate or burglar bars. There is still a lot of good in South Africa and I don’t talk negatives about the country to anyone. But my kids are safe and I can sleep at night not worrying about security. It takes guts to pick up and go and anyone who thinks it is a walk in the park has no clue what they are talking about. If you going to live on rands, you are going to battle. The sooner you earn $ ,the easier life gets.
Each have their own reasons for coming over or staying on that side both have their pro's and con's. But before you do immigrate, research, read and don't be an ostrich.

Some good points. Input appreciated.
Can you expand a bit more in terms of costs? Emmigration costs, living costs, house purchase costs (did you get a loan from the bank immediately?). Would be interesting. I must admit, of all the countries in the world that would be an emmigration possibility, NZ would not be lowest on my lists.

But there are downs of course. As you say, one must research well (I actually suggest to Gauteng residents to research moving to the Cape before considering emmigrating!). I found the forum below interesting in that regard:
http://www.britishexpat.com/expatforum/nz/viewforum.php?f=153&sid=09dcd6058b3a2bd7b20b948e1c144acb
Especially this thread: http://www.britishexpat.com/expatforum/nz/viewtopic.php?t=7384
Quote:

Seriously, give it a good, hard, pessimistic thought. It can't hurt you to know the worst-case scenario. There's good, hard, pessimistic reasons 20,000 Kiwi leave the country every year. There's some pretty hard, damn heartbreaking reasons 1 in 5 migrants leave after 5 years, with figures higher for Asians.

To be frank, I'd be sceptical of emmigrating to any country where for some reasons or other, a lot of the locals are leaving. Makes one wonder why.

Another interesting thread: http://www.britishexpat.com/expatforum/nz/viewtopic.php?t=6181
Quote (I've highlighted the important ones for South Africans):

Good:
Open space
Clean air
Clean streets
Great beaches
Trees - lots of them
Safe schools
Kids can play in streets safely
Medical services
Outdoor lifestyle - skiing, fishing, camping
Summer weather

Bad:
Low wages
High cost of living
High Taxes
Having to chop firewood to keep warm in Winter
No central heating and double glazing
Roads dangerous
Lack of reliable public transport.
NZQA not recognising many UK qualifications
Winter rain and damp houses
Hard to make friends

Lastly - and please don't see this as critisism - why did you not rather consider Australia?

 

[Skinner]

True, it takes a “little” while in getting to know how things work.

Maybe it's not so bad in NZ, I can promise you in many other countries it is frustrating. It is hard to find people that will help you. In Central European countries it is a nightmare. But yes, in some other countries you may have more luck than other.

spending hours on end trying to sort out little things like Drivers licences,

Never had any problem renewing my drivers licence in the Cape.

electricity problems

Never had any problem with electricity bills in the Cape.
As for load shedding: buy a generator. Granted, it is obviously not ideal like 100% 24/7 power supply as in NZ, but there is a good enough solution for many (buy a generator).

Telkom battles with broadband

Why does everything in one's life has to need the internet for?

Crime in CT is no less than Gauteng these days.

Not according to the stats, neither according to my personal experiences.
House robberies soar

In Gauteng, where the incidence of residential robbery is the highest in the country,...

Emigration is expensive, but its all made up after the first year

Please quantify this statement.
Costs of emmigration + interest rate at prime?
Amount of disposable income (over 12 month period) that equal or better abovementioned emmigration costs?

SA culture no longer interests me, in fact I am glad I am rid of it.

Okay, that comes down to personal preferences & lifestyle.

Family and friends are all in the process of moving to NZ or AUS, some of them are already here.

Most of them? Or not?

Moving overseas give you the chance to start again on a new credit history

Sounds almost like "erase SA credit history". Sounds dodgy.

here in NZ I have been offered all sorts of credit ranging from credit cards to personal loans

For how long after you've arrived there and started working?

not a home loan though until one has residency.

How much does a typical house cost?

AA and BEE is not a just a stumble block, its pushing white people out of work and making it increasingly harder for pale males to find work.

Depending on their specific career and experience levels: certain whites.

PS us South Africans are really highly valued here in NZ, ask anybody from NZ and they will tell you the same story.

Good news. Fair enough.

Working in an environment with no BEE/AA bullsh1t, means you can go one way only in your career and that’s up.

By looking at the many successful entrepreneurs and businessmen in SA, it doesn't look like many of them are going down in their careers.

What culture are you talking about? Slaughtering cows on the sidewalk, hijacking? Give some examples, please define SA culture?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_South_Africa

There is no single Culture of South Africa. As South Africa is so ethnically diverse, it is not surprising that there are vast cultural differences as well.

There is a list. Find the one that's applicable to you and ask yourself if you can practise it 100% the same way, frequency, emotion and meaning as you do/did in SA.

Far East, but here in NZ we are surrounded with SA culture, braaing etc etc.. (if braaing is what you mean represents SA culture)

Don't you need a permit to make an open fire outside on residential property?
Reason I ask is because in many 1st world countries, you need a permit or it is simply outright forbidden. Laughable, actually.

Fuel here in NZ is currently R11 per litre, not far off especially because I make use of good efficient public transport. I fill up the car once a month here in NZ, in SA I use to fill it up 4 times a month so by those standards its way more expensive in SA. Public transport here does not cost an arm and a leg either. Food may be a bit more expensive here too, but I am earning twice as much as I was in SA.

How are the food? As tasty as in SA?

Huh? And SA is immune to this? Where do you suppose all the townships are getting their free houses/electricity from? If you are working in SA and you paying TAX, you paying for it out of your own pocket.

It is still much less than the social taxes you pay for others in many 1st world countries. I recently learned healthcare is for free in NZ, however. Good news

You sucking rubbish facts from your thumb and clearly don’t know what you talking about.

No personal insults please. Let's keep the discussion clean.

Over 50 murders per day in SA. I rest my case dude. I would say you have a very high chance of being shot in SA.

Not taking chances per racial group into account, that leaves a 0.04% chance that you will be shot in 1 year. So if you live 80 years, you have a 3.2% chance of being shot. Pardon me, but I think that's a pretty low chance!

Not sure why I would want to shoot myself though?

People shoot themselves out of depression.

As a side note you do not mention all the things as to why people are leaving SA in droves, AA/BEE is on top of that list along

For those people that are affected by AA/BEE, I fully support their decision.

The uncertainty of Zuma and all that is not worth the gamble to just hang around in SA, live in hope and believe that my family would be immune to all of this.

Same hype and type of uncertainty was around at 1994, and nothing happened to anyone then, did it?

If you are confused about emigrating ask yourself where you would rather be, I hate to believe SA is getting worse, but I believe that things are going to get far worse for everyone. However, I would rather be here in NZ and be wrong about this assumption than be in SA and be right about it.

I guess the factors that contribute to personal happiness in each person's own circumstances, vary greatly. For some it may be to live in a safe environment. For others it may be staying in their home country and finding creative ways of enriching their lives and sustaining their culture, and not run away to the arse ends of the world.

Fair enough.

 

[Badprop]

Costs, vary from household to household, from north to south etc but this is roughly mine. Please also remember that to convert it directly into rands will give you a distorted picture.
Housing has come down and the average house is $390 000 they said this morning on the news. We renting and paying $600 per week at the moment. We will only sell our house in SA once we have PR. $200 groceries, $107 petrol per week. W&L is high this month due to winter, $220pm.
We are 2 working adults with 2 kids. We have after food and all expenditures, $250 left over each week. Work that back into rands and you will fall flat laughing. But the house, kars, petrol, food, w&L, dsl and telephone has all been paid so what do you do with $250 per week extra? I pay about $200 tax per week but don’t mind this, if you see the conditions of the roads and the parks, my kids paying $150 per year school and their meds are free then I pay it with a smile.

The rule of thumb is you need $1200 per week to live well here.
Total immigration costs? Airplane, R50 000, immi papers +- $3000, container (40foot) R60 000. I know a few people who came over with only their bags and bought everything here but the kids settled better with their own stuff.

Used cars are cheap as Japan floods the market, but new cars are not(only my opinion) but there’s not a lot of people who drive flashy cars here, and those that do, don’t brag about it. It’s just not done.

Read (don’t shoot but can’t remember where, must have been the herald) that the PM’s home is worth $980 000. Now that is flash. She doesn’t have dozens of guards around her only when she goes out of the country. No blue lights or stuff like that, she is down to earth like all her citizens.

And the best for last... NZ hasn’t had a road death now for 3 weekends in a row! Must be because I was at home and not on the roads...

 

[MacNabs]

Never had any problem renewing my drivers licence in the Cape.

Oh well, probably different experiences then. I found it an absolute nightmare in the Cape, to renew ones licence I had to take the afternoon off work.

Never had any problem with electricity bills in the Cape.
As for load shedding: buy a generator. Granted, it is obviously not ideal like 100% 24/7 power supply as in NZ, but there is a good enough solution for many (buy a generator)

HAHA, so buying a generator is like the solution to all the problems. How does that affect your drive to work every day when all the traffic lights in an entire suburb are out? Generators only solves part of the problem. Lets not forget the noise of the dam thing, added to that most generators are not powerful enough to power your entire home. Try heating, tumble dryer and the stove at the same time, don’t forget the geyser. Unless you want to actually spend a fortune on a generator its not going to replace your electrical supply from the grid. You could also use gas, which would be an ideal solution but SA does not have a reliable gas system either, so you end up having to collect/drop off heavy gas bottles every week or so. Not worth the effort.

Why does everything in one's life has to need the internet for?

So people like yourself can surf the web at 1:40am SA time in the morning!! Get a life dude!!! Besides its not just broadband, it’s the general telecommunications in SA, just this week I was chatting to my parents in SA over skype, and the connection is not fast enough to support just the voice. They paying about R1000pm for their phone/broadband, what a waist of money. When I speak to friends in the UK on skype its like real time, with video. Guess where my parents live, on the garden route, in the western cape.

Not according to the stats, neither according to my personal experiences.
House robberies soar

Ah, depends what source of information you choose, I would rather look at the statistics found here:

The crime free Cape:
http://www.saps.gov.za/statistics/reports/crimestats/2008/_provinces/w_cape/pdf/westerncape.pdf
2836 murders in the cape in 1 year,
4000 rapes in 1 year.

Gangsters “not too bad” paradise:
http://www.saps.gov.za/statistics/reports/crimestats/2008/_provinces/gauteng/pdf/gauteng.pdf
3674 murders in Gauteng,
8073 rapes.

Now lets ask the question, The Western Cape consists of one big city, Cape Town. Gauteng is a hell of a lot bigger and consists of 2 big cities, both bigger than Cape Town. Gauteng is the smallest but most populated province in SA, Looks to me like the western cape is on a par with Gauteng, if not worse than Gauteng especially for murders.

Same hype and type of uncertainty was around at 1994, and nothing happened to anyone then, did it?

Well best you stick it out and find out for yourself, as I said I will rather not stick around to find out that I was wrong.

Not interested in furthering this debate with you.

 

[MacNabs]

Dam skinner you are certainly very amusing….

Not taking chances per racial group into account, that leaves a 0.04% chance that you will be shot in 1 year. So if you live 80 years, you have a 3.2% chance of being shot. Pardon me, but I think that's a pretty low chance!

0.04% chance of being shot, dammit skinner!!!! That’s just under half a percent. That’s like a chance in 200, every single year of your life of being shot. If a gun could hold 200 bullets, but only held one bullet would you play Russian rollet with yourself every single year? Worse still point the gun at your kids head every single year? I certainly would not. If you could pay R1000 for a one in 200 chance of winning the lotto of R15mil would you would play it? That’s under R100 per month to participate every year for the rest of your life in the lotto to win all that cash! I certainly would play the lotto every year with odds like that. At some point you gonna hit jackpot! Maybe I have miss interpreted your post, care to explain!

People shoot themselves out of depression. I am willing to bet my last dollar, people in SA are far more depressed than in other countries. Maybe you should look at the suicide rates in SA!!

 

[PeterCH]

Having experienced emmigration as a kid with my parents, including learning a new language and culture, I can say that it can be difficult in the beginning,
but the rewards do pay off.

From my own experiences, I have friends and family in the US, UK, Australia,
France and Belgium - all immigrants (although the UK/Fr/Bel don't really
count as they're EU passport holders and speak Fr and Eng).
Language and culture are the biggest stumble blocks I say.
If you're thinking of going to Brazil or Taiwan, well it's going to be hard
for those reasons, if you're talking USA/Canada/exBritish Colonies
then things will be much easier. Of all my friends, every single one
is loving it in USA/Australia and the UK. They are not coming back,
not even for holidays. Everything is so much easier to arrange, the pay is 2-3x higher, life is easier, people are friendly and work hours don't really seem long at all. I have a nursing sister friend who is working 25 hours per week
and is earning $95.000 per annum for example - that's in California.

So yeah it depends, but as someone who had to learn a brand new language at the age of 10 (I didn't speak English prior to that age),
and two highly educated parents who left their private business, had to
learn a new language too at the age of 30+ and get used to a different
sort of life, I can attest that everything is possible.

 

[Skinner]

Costs, vary from household to household, from north to south etc but this is roughly mine. Please also remember that to convert it directly into rands will give you a distorted picture.
Housing has come down and the average house is $390 000 they said this morning on the news. We renting and paying $600 per week at the moment. We will only sell our house in SA once we have PR. $200 groceries, $107 petrol per week. W&L is high this month due to winter, $220pm.
We are 2 working adults with 2 kids. We have after food and all expenditures, $250 left over each week. Work that back into rands and you will fall flat laughing. But the house, kars, petrol, food, w&L, dsl and telephone has all been paid so what do you do with $250 per week extra? I pay about $200 tax per week but don’t mind this, if you see the conditions of the roads and the parks, my kids paying $150 per year school and their meds are free then I pay it with a smile.

I think a potential immigrant to NZ has to see what his expected salary and expenses will be. Thanks for listing the expenses. Here is a table of some salaries one can expect:
http://www.emigratenz.org/Work.html

 

[Skinner]

Oh well, probably different experiences then. I found it an absolute nightmare in the Cape, to renew ones licence I had to take the afternoon off work.

This happens every 5 years, that you have to take one afternoon off work?
Dunno, last time I went I was there at 08:00 the morning, waited 30 minutes, was out by 8:30 and at work 09:00. No problemo.

HAHA, so buying a generator is like the solution to all the problems. How does that affect your drive to work every day when all the traffic lights in an entire suburb are out?

Take backstreets or an alternative route.
And usually, there are traffic cops directing the traffic when this happens.

Generators only solves part of the problem. Lets not forget the noise of the dam thing,

Build a sound dampening container around it.
Besides, only time the noise could bother you is when you want to sleep, but then you don't need electricity anyhow so you can switch the thing off.

added to that most generators are not powerful enough to power your entire home. Try heating, tumble dryer and the stove at the same time, don’t forget the geyser.

But then don't use them all at the same time. With some better planning, of which devices to use when, you can make the gennie cope with the load. Unfortunately, if you spend evenings browing new 5-series Beemer catalogues, instead of doing planning like this, I don't have advice for you.

would be an ideal solution but SA does not have a reliable gas system either, so you end up having to collect/drop off heavy gas bottles every week or so.

Ask your garden worker to help you.

Not worth the effort.

Are you lazy?
Life IS effort - especially life in SA - get used to it. Nothing will fall into your hands.

Get a life dude!!! Besides its not just broadband, it’s the general telecommunications in SA, just this week I was chatting to my parents in SA over skype, and the connection is not fast enough to support just the voice.

If you were still in SA you would not need to Skype them in the first place.

They paying about R1000pm for their phone/broadband, what a waist of money.

Spelling: waste. A waist is what you tighten a belt around.

When I speak to friends in the UK on skype its like real time, with video. Guess where my parents live, on the garden route, in the western cape.

And a damn good place it is, one of the nicest in the Cape...

Ah, depends what source of information you choose, I would rather look at the statistics found here:

The crime free Cape:
http://www.saps.gov.za/statistics/reports/crimestats/2008/_provinces/w_cape/pdf/westerncape.pdf
2836 murders in the cape in 1 year,
4000 rapes in 1 year.

Gangsters “not too bad” paradise:
http://www.saps.gov.za/statistics/reports/crimestats/2008/_provinces/gauteng/pdf/gauteng.pdf
3674 murders in Gauteng,
8073 rapes.

Now lets ask the question, The Western Cape consists of one big city, Cape Town. Gauteng is a hell of a lot bigger and consists of 2 big cities, both bigger than Cape Town. Gauteng is the smallest but most populated province in SA, Looks to me like the western cape is on a par with Gauteng, if not worse than Gauteng especially for murders.

The murders in the Cape happen in specific suburbs. Have a look at these stats:
Camps Bay: Murder 0
Cape Town Central: Murder 17
Claremont: Murder 3
Hout Bay: Murder 14
Sea Point: Murder 4
Simon's Town: Murder 2
Table Bay Harbour: Murder 2
Melkbosstrand: Murder 0

Gugulethu: Murder 153
Langa: Murder 59
Mitchells Plain: Murder 57
Nyanga: Murder 266
Philippi East: Murder 75
Delft: Murder 122
Mfuleni: Murder 109
Harare: Murder 175
Khayelitsha: Murder 171

Get what I mean?
Avoid the 9 abovementioned suburbs and your chances are VERY low, if not zero.

 

[Skinner]

0.04% chance of being shot, dammit skinner!!!! That’s just under half a percent. That’s like a chance in 200

I wonder how NZ could allow you into a 1st world country with maths like that.

0.04% is a chance of 1 out of 2500.

If a gun could hold 200 bullets, but only held one bullet would you play Russian rollet with yourself every single year? Worse still point the gun at your kids head every single year? I certainly would not.

Bad example for your argument!
So let's see, there are 50 murders a year in NZ. There is thus an x chance that you can get murdered in NZ. So: If a gun could hold x bullets, but only held one bullet would you play Russian rollet with yourself every single year? Worse still point the gun at your kids head every single year? I certainly would not.

 

[Skinner]

Having experienced emmigration as a kid with my parents, including learning a new language and culture, I can say that it can be difficult in the beginning,
but the rewards do pay off.

From my own experiences, I have friends and family in the US, UK, Australia,
France and Belgium - all immigrants (although the UK/Fr/Bel don't really
count as they're EU passport holders and speak Fr and Eng).
Language and culture are the biggest stumble blocks I say.
If you're thinking of going to Brazil or Taiwan, well it's going to be hard
for those reasons, if you're talking USA/Canada/exBritish Colonies
then things will be much easier. Of all my friends, every single one
is loving it in USA/Australia and the UK. They are not coming back,
not even for holidays. Everything is so much easier to arrange, the pay is 2-3x higher, life is easier, people are friendly and work hours don't really seem long at all. I have a nursing sister friend who is working 25 hours per week
and is earning $95.000 per annum for example - that's in California.

So yeah it depends, but as someone who had to learn a brand new language at the age of 10 (I didn't speak English prior to that age),
and two highly educated parents who left their private business, had to
learn a new language too at the age of 30+ and get used to a different
sort of life, I can attest that everything is possible.

Interesting. Thanks for some input from other countries as well.

 

[Adeptus Mechanicus]

FFS Skinner, what interest do you have invested in keeping people here and singing SA's praises, despite the issues you choose to ignore?

Quotes such as this are so overgeneralised it almost seems as if you've done no research at all:

In SA: things are still cheap.
Overseas: you will pay through your head for nearly everything you were used to as being cheap in SA. Fuel being one of the best examples.

What about cars as an example? Do you recall a study conducted a year or two ago which showed how SA is being shafted (for no reason at all) with regards to the prices we pay for motor vehicles?

 

[DigitalSoldier]

Since this seem to be a hot topic nowadays, let's summarise the common facts that should be applicable to almost everyone that is considering leaving SA.

Those from the other camp, namely those in favour of emmigrating, are naturally also welcome to post their "ADVANTAGES OF EMMIGRATING" here. Please no insults - let's maintain civil discussion.

[

Hi

Just curious would you consider yourself in favour of emigration ?

As I understand it you currently do not live in South Africa

 

[Skinner]

Hi

Howdy!

Just curious would you consider yourself in favour of emigration ?

In my personal circumstances: not at all.

As I understand it you currently do not live in South Africa

Correct.

 

[Crabby]

I can't understand why you okes still bother to feed this troll who looks like he works for SAHomecoming or some other guvamint institution.

 

[LoneGunman]

@Crabby, agreed. Its fairly sick for someone (allegedly) not inside a country, to be telling people who are in that country, locked up behind high walls and facing the possibility of extreme violence 24/7 - to 'stay where they are' and continue trying to tell those people how bad leaving might be, and how 'awful' overseas is.

Its a bit like someone in the 1930's, working very very hard to persuade Jewish people (and other minorities) NOT to leave Germany, and to disregard the evidence all around them.

 

[LoneGunman]

@Crabby, agreed. Its fairly sick for someone (allegedly) not inside a country, to be telling people who are in that country, locked up behind high walls and facing the possibility of extreme violence 24/7 - to 'stay where they are' and continue trying to tell those people how bad leaving might be, and how 'awful' overseas is.

Its a bit like someone in the 1930's, working very very hard to persuade Jewish people (and other minorities) NOT to leave Germany, and to disregard the evidence all around them.