Toll road protest

[Jonny Two Shoes]

Buy motorized bicycles (the ones you pedal but use the motor for hills and such). I don't think you can be tolled for those

Hell it would be a protest plus it would save SA from this obesity nonsense

 

[DukeofHouse]

I think the Gautrain should have been completed before the tolls come into effect.
It's insane to ask, or rather tell people to use the highways and pay extra without offering a viable alternative.
(and please don't say back roads - you and I both know they'll be at a standstill once this comes into effect)

 

[Mars]

I think the Gautrain should have been completed before the tolls come into effect.
It's insane to ask, or rather tell people to use the highways and pay extra without offering a viable alternative.
(and please don't say back roads - you and I both know they'll be at a standstill once this comes into effect)

It will be apparently. The launch of the tolls coencides with the launch of the main line of the Gautrain.

That still doesn't help me. I travel in the opposite direction.

 

[Paul_S]

I think the Gautrain should have been completed before the tolls come into effect.

IIRC the Gautrain will be running to all stations by June 2011 when the tolls are implemented.
The problem is how do you get to the train stations if there is no bus feeder route nearby?

 

[DukeofHouse]

IIRC the Gautrain will be running to all stations by June 2011 when the tolls are implemented.
The problem is how do you get to the train stations if there is no bus feeder route nearby?

Oh cool.. Didn't know this..
I've seen the busses around the Sandton CBD, so I would assume there will be the same setup at the other stations.
Agree though - they're not going to be able to cater for everyone's commute needs.

 

[RVQ]

Firstly let me say this is gonna hurt my pocket even worse than the PTA to JHB commuter. There are options available but people are too spoilt in their ways to want anything less.

Drive to Gautrain and walk/bus to work. Use it myself whenever I can and works like a dream! Get some morning/evening exercise in!
Carpool where/when you can, just look at the cars around you and you will see one person per car. Done in the past, unfortunately can’t anymore with my current job. Get some extra sleep in the passenger seat!
Two wheels. Bikes take up less space, use less fuel, do less damage and tolls cheaper. Don’t have a bike now but awesome being able to just sail past all the cars stuck in traffic. Get some more time with the family!
Work closer to home. ADSL speeds are picking up and bandwidth is getting cheaper, VPNs/MS LYNC work like a dream!
If all the above unacceptable then move closer to work! My option

 

[OzzieCapie]

Okay let me put the figures in a more useful format:

Snip
///
The unemployed still have to eat and the price of food will increase as a result of the high tolls on transportation.

I don't see the logic in the argument.
Most South Africans squeeze their budgets in order to afford a car.
By your logic we should be paying higher toll prices because we are ripped off by the car manufacturers?!

? Either my logic is flawed or that is actually in favour of what you are arguing against

We pay a shyte load already so we cannot afford the tolls even more so.

Paul and Jonny, the logic is not flawed.

Toll roads only affect people with cars, and mainly people going to work or transportation of goods. The figures about income across the board are irrelevant to a service that does not affect them.

On the first, considering that you can already afford the cars in the first instance, either paying same or more than elsewhere...and btw there are more BMW's and Merc's on your roads than ours which is another issue...and you are paying same for petrol....the assumption is that you can already afford that. If you couldn't then they wouldn't sell as many cars (or BMWs/Mercs in particular) or fill them up (and drive at 160kmh too boot) and prices will come down.

Now considering all that, I can't understand the hullabaloo about paying much less than elsewhere for an alternative (choice) that will increase productivity. I really can't understand people who pay R400K for a car complaining about R15 that will get them to work much quicker.

People pay the $14.00 here to get to the city because your time is actually much more valuable than that.

As for trucks and goods, the experience elsewhere is that good transport managers tell their drivers to use it because it is more economical than idling away on back roads, lower fuel costs per km, and lower maintenance due to less stop start and better roads. Prices elsewhere have not gone up because of tolls which represent a miniscule amount of costs for them with big benefits.

cheers

 

[MiY4Gi]

Toll fees make sense, but with the amount they're charging, it's almost extortion. I'll most likely leave house earlier and take the longer router, than pay extra for using a free way.

Edit 1:

HOLD ON!!!!!!

Then what the hell are we paying fuel tax for? Isn't that tax supposed to go towards maintaining and building better roads?

Edit 2:

Freaking hell! We're already paying fuel levies and vehicle license fees which should be allocated to roads!

http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/manuel-gives-green-light-for-cape-fuel-levy-1.284271

http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/Content.aspx?id=113551

Both of the 2 articles above say that part of the fuel levies are used for roads. The second article even says that the government will give SANRAL R25bn over a 3 year period for building roads.

Found this: http://sanralimage.ensightnetworkscluster0.com/content/Toll_Tarif_Leaflt_2010.pdf

The toll fees don't look so bad, but there might be something wrong with my eyes.

 

[RaptorSA]

Paul and Jonny, the logic is not flawed.

Toll roads only affect people with cars, and mainly people going to work or transportation of goods. The figures about income across the board are irrelevant to a service that does not affect them.

On the first, considering that you can already afford the cars in the first instance, either paying same or more than elsewhere...and btw there are more BMW's and Merc's on your roads than ours which is another issue...and you are paying same for petrol....the assumption is that you can already afford that. If you couldn't then they wouldn't sell as many cars (or BMWs/Mercs in particular) or fill them up (and drive at 160kmh too boot) and prices will come down.

Now considering all that, I can't understand the hullabaloo about paying much less than elsewhere for an alternative (choice) that will increase productivity. I really can't understand people who pay R400K for a car complaining about R15 that will get them to work much quicker.

People pay the $14.00 here to get to the city because your time is actually much more valuable than that.

As for trucks and goods, the experience elsewhere is that good transport managers tell their drivers to use it because it is more economical than idling away on back roads, lower fuel costs per km, and lower maintenance due to less stop start and better roads. Prices elsewhere have not gone up because of tolls which represent a miniscule amount of costs for them with big benefits.

cheers

Wow, what a load of simplistic mental acrobatic horse****. Not even worth commenting on.

I think everyone supporting these toll roads are missing the point completely.
These roads weren't created to supplement the existing infrastructure, they simply took our existing roads that have been there for decades (paid for in the first place by taxpayer money) and now force everyone to pay the premium or piss off and find alternatives, essentially making the problems it causes your own. Can one person here remember agreeing to this before the upgrades were made?

JHB and PTA is essentially a metropolis and now they're going to rake in tons of cash by annexing existing infrastructure and pushing us into a corner with almost no alternative way out. I'm sorry, but supporting this move is completely and utterly pathetic and the justifications simply don't hold up to the barefaced fact that we're all being taken for a ride with absolutely NO idea whatsoever as to the amount of transparency and future projects lined up, we don't even know what the official fees are yet. If they wanted to charge toll fees they should have created supplementary roads that would be an alternative for those who saw the benefits of using them. It's called CHOICE people, you now, that thing that's supposed to occur whenever a private company enters the arena.

It also keeps begging the question: If they were able to build these roads and bridges in a time where there were way less taxpayers and cars on the roads, why do they now need to charge such incredibly high rates to fund upgrades to these roads?!?!
I can almost guarantee you that when these toll gates get switched on and the controversy draws more attention by the future press we're going to find loads of black holes in the way the funding for these roads are accumulated and spent. As far as I'm concerned, If you can't realise that, then you're simply naive.

First Telkom and now this. Piece by piece the ANC is taking infrastructure owned by taxpayers and turning it over to so called "independent" companies with their fingers snug up the governments ass.

 

[Sly21C]

There are many poor people in this Country, use them. Pay them to come and start a fire at all the gantries, burn them down or something. At first I supported the idea of paying to use the highway but after looking at the cost of people and businesses who use the highways daily it is so unfair and criminal. Use radical action, let's use the resources that we have (poor people) and burn down all these equipment ready to milk money away from us.

 

[Creag]

Just for reference the perspective of toll roads in Australia. It is not just a South African or an ANC issue.

From the outside looking in it doesn't take long before the govt is blamed or called incompetent for everything.

No one likes to pay road tolls, especially when travelling on highways always used to be free, but the reality is that govts will either not keep up with highway infrastructure or they will 'fast track' it with private/govt toll roads. It is done by all countries, and your tolls are amongst the lowest so be grateful for that.

As a comparison, from where I live in Sydney if I used freeway only from home, then to get to the city (or onward to airport) would be (heading east) would be two freeways, one tunnel and harbour bridge, total $13.62 (R100.00) for 39km or $0.35c (R2.56) per km.
Speed limits are variable between 80km-100km/h and in peak travel it would take you over an hour...yes even when you are paying for the privilege--yet still quicker than rat-runs with lots of traffic lights.

Heading southwest in opposite direction , one freeway only $6.92 (R51.00) for 34km or $0.20c (R1.50) per km but this not heading towards CBD or industrial areas for most people i.e to head to Canberra or south west suburbs only.

We all have e-Tags, even the casual driver, because at some stage you will need it. These e-Tags have a minimum auto top up amount of $50, so these companies are at any stage sitting on a deposit of $50 x hundreds of thousands. The e-Tags work on all the toll roads irrespective of who owns/manages it , even if you drive to Melbourne or Brisbane.

We also blame the govt btw....but the ANC can never ever be as incompetent as the NSW Labor govt that has been in power since 1995 (hopefully for only one month more). At the end of the day you choose between unreliable public transport, lots of stress in traffic jams and lights and less stress in slow moving freeway.

I will post it on the 'protest' thread too.

So tell us about the public transport available there in Sydney ... buses, trains, monorails, etc?

I think that having the option of decent, efficient public transport would stop most of us bleating about the double-taxation for the use of roads.

I am not going to use the taxis - the drivers have scant regard for other motorists, poor regard for their customers, the vehicles are poorly maintained (if at all) and their driving skills are at best equal to the kamikaze pilots of WWII.

Metro buses are erratic and are forever going on 'wildcat' strikes. No nearby routes.

No trains from the West Rand into Joburg. Nearest train station must be a good 10 kilometres south.

Car pools? Maybe. But I have to get kids periodically. I need to get to meetings and see clients. I work different hours (often much later) than those in my area.

Not sure it's acceptable to compare Sydney or any other first world city to Joburg and Pretoria.

 

[OzzieCapie]

Wow, what a load of simplistic mental acrobatic horse****. Not even worth commenting on.

I think everyone supporting these toll roads are missing the point completely.
These roads weren't created to supplement the existing infrastructure, they simply took our existing roads that have been there for decades (paid for in the first place by taxpayer money) and now force everyone to pay the premium or piss off and find alternatives, essentially making the problems it causes your own. Can one person here remember agreeing to this before the upgrades were made?

Thanks for that information. It seemed to me that they built new roads, in which case a toll option is viable. What was the extent of the 'upgrades'?

However, in the case of new freeways, my points stand.

People are under the mis apprehension that a) their fuel taxes registrations and are sufficient to upkeep the roads and b.) new freeways should automatically be built ad infinitum as cars increase because these taxes are paid. In Australia where we pay higher fuel/rego taxes that is not the case, and I doubt it is in SA.
The fact is that consolidated revenue (i.e. each and every person's tax) is used to top up that expense.

When it comes to new freeways, we can either wait forever on promises to build it, or a private/public consortium builds it and charges for it.
As for the worth of my time, even when I go to my sister on a Sunday afternoon for BBQ, I can take the 'old' road with lots of traffic lights or pay $6.00 and get there much earlier and use that time to down three of my brother in law's beers to even things up...no brainer for me what I should do.

So tell us about the public transport available there in Sydney ... buses, trains, monorails, etc?

I think that having the option of decent, efficient public transport would stop most of us bleating about the double-taxation for the use of roads.

Good question, and doesn't that website imply that the public transport is great.

Fact is that though we have good , regular trains there is bad interconnectivity and it is not cheap either. And there is no trains to the biggest growth area in Sydney (NW sector) where we live.

My daughters go to uni at different times. We have to drive them to and pick up from station otherwise it is an additional 45min min each way. One of them goes 25km 'as crow flies'. It is accessible by one of busiest peak hour roads...probably 90min drive, and by train it involves trip to station at 6:30am to get there via train plus bus by 8:30am start. Same deal in afternoon in reverse.

Last year going to Melbourne fo weekend we took train to airport. Daughter droped us at station, train to city, lug cases down and up stairs, wait for another train straight to airport...same in reverse ..90min trip. Cost for this 'inconvenience' $70. Petrol plus tolls would have been $25, parking $36 ...45min trip.

At least the train is 'safe' ...when other people are around.

Public transport is one of the issues that will bring this NSW govt down next month

cheers

 

[galex]

The real problem is that Trucks will pay R4 per Km, this cost will be put back on the consumer, this is you, most likely via fuel and food.

We must take action against this or it won't be the end. Our cost of living is increasing until only the rich can survive, this is by design.

There is an unwritten rule in life, if I come take your TV and you do nothing, it's okay, I'll then come back and take something bigger, so on and so forth. This is what the government is doing to us.

If we don't protest the illegal taxing of our roads, they will keep giving us more "taxes" until we let them know we won't stand for it, the longer we wait the worse it will be.

There is a resistance underway, I will post dates and times as soon as we have them.
For now get angry and speak to people, let them know you care and they will start to care. It's that simple.

Victory South Africa (VSA)

 

[Paul_S]

There is a resistance underway, I will post dates and times as soon as we have them.

Will it involve taking up arms?

 

[pcgig]

Time to pull an egyptian revolution on the tolling system!

 

[galex]

Violence won't solve anything, if we use violence to get what we want it'll be easy for the Government to squash the movement with force ( they have a lot ). Then the news will tell the rest of the country how bad we are and there goes the support for a legal and legitimate protest.

I have no problems paying for good roads, here is my complaint.

1. I pay for the fuel to be delivered ( Taxed )
2. I pay to buy the fuel. ( Taxed Again )
3. I pay to use the fuel. (Taxed Again )
4. I pay to use my vehicle ( Taxed Again )
5. I pay to use the roads ( Taxed Again )

The money I use for the above has already been taxed...

Now any costs added to the transport and sale of fuel and food will be passed on directly to the consumer, you will ultimately be paying for the tax which the transport companies now have to pay.

Other counties won't understand out gripe, yes they do pay, but:
1. They have alternative transport options.
2. They let it happen.

The reasons they give for implementing this are insane, any rational person should be able to see through this scam.

It will not reduce traffic, South Africans don't sit on the highway because they like it, there is no other option, if there was we would already be using it.

It will not help the environment, CO2 does not affect climate change, but it's great to tax because we breath it out ( watch this space for more tax )

It will not save you money or time or make your life any better.
In the end we will have less money to buy more expensive foods.

It's important to get angry and to speak about what if going on, before we can stage any viable resistance we need awareness. I'm sure if people understood the implication they wouldn't be able to sit back and watch it happen.

Take care
G

 

[Musiclover08]

This thread really got active Awareness is what we need. The Star newspaper had a story about the tolls and what our transport minister says. I shall post the links. People are getting angry which is good! We need to start a revolution with this, just like Egypt and the like.

Links to the stories
http://www.thestar.co.za/toll-fees-santaco-voice-their-grievances-1.1027757
http://www.thestar.co.za/toll-plan-starts-to-show-cracks-1.1027692
http://www.thestar.co.za/don-t-like-tolls-get-on-the-bus-1.1027451
http://www.thestar.co.za/sanral-boss-defends-toll-fees-1.1027754
http://www.thestar.co.za/toll-road-rage-1.1027718
http://www.thestar.co.za/toll-costs-reveal-two-faces-of-anc-1.1027432

 

[Thugscub]

I asked the local supermarket manager to sell vaseline in 1 ton containers. To our beloved country bend over.

All that is going to happen is: False no. plates are going to boom. False licence disks as well. Failing that when one renews your disk a small bribe will work. What is new in this country.
Got the screaming sh*ts, and fusks off back to Botswana.

 

[Paul_S]

The real reasons for the high toll charges are coming to light.

Johannesburg - Eighty-five cents out of every R1 profit made from constructing and operating Gauteng’s controversial open road tolling system could land up in the pockets of an Austrian traffic conglomerate.

Davey said “actual profit” from the project would *accrue to many entities and he *expected less than 25% of profits to be “repatriated”.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Toll-road-fat-cats-20110220

 

[MiY4Gi]

Well, this is rather infuriating. What about you guys? When can we start burning tires?