Understanding DPReview High ISO comparison

OGroteKoning

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Most of you are aware of this feature on DPReview and probably understand it pretty well (I am still learning). Looking at the comparison in the attachment, the 6D uses a 85mm EF f/1.8 lens and the others use a 50 mm EF f/1.4 lens. Is this comparison fair seeing they don't use the same lense and f/?.? How do I interpret the results with these differences in mind?

DPR Comp.JPG
 
As long as you can compare similar images then I don't think the lens is relevant. Noise isn't a result of the lens, is it? It's the result of a sensor. In terms of primes the 50mm gives a similar FOV on an APS-C as a 85mm on the FF bodies.
 
As long as you can compare similar images then I don't think the lens is relevant. Noise isn't a result of the lens, is it? It's the result of a sensor. In terms of primes the 50mm gives a similar FOV on an APS-C as a 85mm on the FF bodies.

Aaaaah ... Is it because of the 1.6x magnification?
 
Aaaaah ... Is it because of the 1.6x magnification?

I would think so - it would also account for the different aperture settings since you would want a similar DOF as well.
 
Another thing to bear in mind is that in your screenshot you are comparing the in-camera noise reduduction of the various models to some extent. This is due to jpeg images being selected. If you want to directly compare sensor noise then select the RAW image option.
 
Most of you are aware of this feature on DPReview and probably understand it pretty well (I am still learning). Looking at the comparison in the attachment, the 6D uses a 85mm EF f/1.8 lens and the others use a 50 mm EF f/1.4 lens. Is this comparison fair seeing they don't use the same lense and f/?.? How do I interpret the results with these differences in mind?

There are two types of noise comparisons:
a) per-pixel noise, and
b) equivalent print size noise

Since we are now living in at 15MP+ world (in terms of most current DSLR bodies), I consider the equivalent print size noise comparison to be more important. A practical example: my old Nikon D40 captured photos at ISO1600 that were excellent when printed at A4 size, but if you opened up the photo at 100% pixel view, you would recoil in horror at the noise :)

Keep in mind that a 300 DPI print at A4 size only requires roughly 6MP. This implies that your 15MP+ photo will be scaled down to roughly 6MP before printing. When you scale down an image, you are effectively averaging the values of adjacent pixels (roughly speaking), which causes the noise to "cancel out" a bit.

The noise comparisons at DPreview are 100% pixel view. The apparent image quality at this magnification (100% pixel view) is relevant when you plan to crop out only a small part of your image, or if you are printing huge posters --- around A2 size for the Canon 18MP sensor. If you find yourself cropping to 100% a lot, then you are probably not using the right lens.

Keep this in mind when looking at the DPreview high-ISO samples. Under these conditions, the full-frame bodies will have a significant advantage, because the effective light-gathering area of a 24MP body's pixel will be roughly 2.25 times that of a comparable 24MP crop-sensor's pixel (at 1.5x crop), which will cause the per-pixel noise to appear much lower in the full-frame sample (about half as much per-pixel noise). This advantage is real, but following my argument above, it applies to a specific case (100% view) that is unlikely to correspond with your normal use (say, printing up to A4 size, or on-screen viewing).

DPreview usually makes available the raw photos for download. I would recommend that you download a few high-ISO samples, process them with your usual software (say, Lightroom), and print them at your typical print size. This will give you a different (perhaps more realistic) perspective of the apparent noise in high-ISO samples.

One last thing: the aperture of the lens used in the DPreview samples does not affect noise in a meaningful way since they are shooting in a studio, which means they can adjust the lighting or shutter speed to obtain an equivalent exposure across full-frame and crop-sensor bodies.
 
Since we are now living in at 15MP+ world (in terms of most current DSLR bodies), I consider the equivalent print size noise comparison to be more important. A practical example: my old Nikon D40 captured photos at ISO1600 that were excellent when printed at A4 size, but if you opened up the photo at 100% pixel view, you would recoil in horror at the noise :)
Printing? Walk into your local camera shop and ask them what sort of metric that is these days.
 
Printing? Walk into your local camera shop and ask them what sort of metric that is these days.

Well, if you are targeting printed media, you are at least talking about a 6MP image (for A4). If you are targeting web-based media, you are probably looking at 2MP, if that much. You can certainly downsample the DPreview images to 2MP for on-screen viewing, if you prefer, or target, say, the 3rd/4th generation ipad. My point was merely that most target media will involve a significant amount of downsampling, with print typically requiring less downsampling, thus being a stricter metric.
 
Printing? Walk into your local camera shop and ask them what sort of metric that is these days.

Well, if you are targeting printed media, you are at least talking about a 6MP image (for A4). If you are targeting web-based media, you are probably looking at 2MP, if that much. You can certainly downsample the DPreview images to 2MP for on-screen viewing, if you prefer, or target, say, the 3rd/4th generation ipad. My point was merely that most target media will involve a significant amount of downsampling, with print typically requiring less downsampling, thus being a stricter metric.

What wifey does at most, is select a number of pics and design/photoshop a booklet approximately A5 size. The other viewing options are on smartphones, pads and screens up to a 42inch Full HD LCD TV.
 
What wifey does at most, is select a number of pics and design/photoshop a booklet approximately A5 size. The other viewing options are on smartphones, pads and screens up to a 42inch Full HD LCD TV.
Your HD TV is likely to have a lower resolution than the tablet. The retina iPad requires a resolution similar to that of a 5x7 print.
 
What wifey does at most, is select a number of pics and design/photoshop a booklet approximately A5 size. The other viewing options are on smartphones, pads and screens up to a 42inch Full HD LCD TV.

Ok, since you have a pretty good idea of your target display medium, you should try to perform your high-ISO comparisons there. You may find that the lower noise of the 6D (compared to, say, the 60D) is not as visible on those targets. In other words, yes, the 6D is clearly better, but maybe the 60D is "good enough".
 
Ok, since you have a pretty good idea of your target display medium, you should try to perform your high-ISO comparisons there. You may find that the lower noise of the 6D (compared to, say, the 60D) is not as visible on those targets. In other words, yes, the 6D is clearly better, but maybe the 60D is "good enough".

There we go ... you clearly remember my 5D mkIII thread .. .this is what I am after ultimately - making a decision to buy a decent camera without begging the bank manager for cash

This makes sense for me to rather purchase towards the viewing medium instead of prize winning pics or even keeping up with the Jones'
 
There we go ... you clearly remember my 5D mkIII thread .. .this is what I am after ultimately - making a decision to buy a decent camera without begging the bank manager for cash

This makes sense for me to rather purchase towards the viewing medium instead of prize winning pics or even keeping up with the Jones'
But isn't your viewing medium going to change dramatically in the next 10 years?
 
But isn't your viewing medium going to change dramatically in the next 10 years?
Probably and that is why a have your comment about tech improvements in mind from the post your pics thread ... I listen to all of you - perhaps I am over analyzing.

EDIT: So now I am considering the 60D for less than 10K, keeping all my lenses and see what happens in 3-4 years.
 
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But isn't your viewing medium going to change dramatically in the next 10 years?

It might, but that is the familiar trade-off between buying what you need now (at a lower price), versus trying to purchase some degree of future-proofing.

I still think that about 300 DPI is a relatively safe assumption going into the future, so the only remaining variable will be the viewing distance to display size ratio --- but usually we stand further back if the display size is larger, so you can even go down to 200 DPI for A2 and larger. The hard limit will be how much detail your eyes can resolve at a given distance.
 
It might, but that is the familiar trade-off between buying what you need now (at a lower price), versus trying to purchase some degree of future-proofing.

I still think that about 300 DPI is a relatively safe assumption going into the future, so the only remaining variable will be the viewing distance to display size ratio --- but usually we stand further back if the display size is larger, so you can even go down to 200 DPI for A2 and larger. The hard limit will be how much detail your eyes can resolve at a given distance.

You're still sticking with that analogue metaphor in a digital future? To me it makes way more sense to plan for 4k, even possibly 8k, displays.
 
You're still sticking with that analogue metaphor in a digital future? To me it makes way more sense to plan for 4k, even possibly 8k, displays.

A 40-inch (diagonal on a 16:9 aspect ratio) full HD display only has a linear resolution of about 55 PPI. Display size is roughly 885 mm by 496 mm, which puts it closer to A1 size on the long edge (but A1 has a 1.41 aspect ratio). A larger full-HD screen size will reduce the linear resolution.

Moving up to 4k and 8k will only increase the linear resolution up to 110 PPI and 220 PPI, respectively, so thinking in terms of a target resolution of between 200 and 300 DPI is a realistic target, even for 8k displays.

At any rate, the OP has already stated that his target media are A5 print (where the 300 DPI criterion makes perfect sense) and ~40-inch full HD displays. He did not state his normal viewing distance from the TV, but taking human visual acuity at between 0.35 arcminutes and 1 arcminute per line places the maximum viewing distance (beyond which additional display resolution cannot be resolved by the eye) between 1.5 m and 4.5 m for full HD resolution. Going up to 4k will result in a maximum viewing distance of between 0.7 m and 2.2 m (or you have to increase display size considerably to preserve a ~3m viewing distance)

So I kind-of agree with the argument of planning for 4k as a reasonable degree of future-proofing. As it turns out, a 300 DPI A4 print takes about 8.7 MP, and 4k takes about 8.3 MP, so evaluating your image quality on A4 prints today will give you a fairly good idea of what your images will look like on a 4k display (at the equivalent viewing angle).
 
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