UniforumSA & Domain Squatters

[House]

I do not know if this is true, but just heard something interesting.

UniforumSA will delete domains only after 17:00 on the scheduled days. They refuse to do this at midnight on the day or before 17:00.

Apparently, this is to accommodate large US based domain traders (squatters) to be online and provide them the opportunity to setup their automated software to grab expired domains as well.

Before they used to delete domains early the morning or around lunch time. Apparently this did not go down well with companies like the Durni Companies.

It has some truth to it according to me, as I can't see why Uniforum could not have deleted the domains 00:00 on the scheduled day.

Does anyone know about this?

 

[Other Pineapple Smurf]

17:00 is probably when the guy goes home and hits the process button on his way out.

 

[House]

17:00 is probably when the guy goes home and hits the process button on his way out.

I'd really want to believe that this is true. Had been my thought as well when I was told about it.

 

[encrypted]

I think its to allow the full business day for people to pay etc..

The whole uniforum thing is a load of crap though. They're "trying to become relevant" but they're so stuck in the legacy days its not even a joke. To them modernization is upgrading to perl 5.

90% of those domain spammers have invalid contact details which already violates the TOS for owning a co.za domain, but hey, screw the legitimate users. I would way prefer the system to switch to prepaid only, or maybe the (now 30 from 120 days) payment window to be reduced to 72 hours (enough time for any bank transfer).

 

[Domains.co.za (Wayne)]

I would way prefer the system to switch to prepaid only, or maybe the (now 30 from 120 days) payment window to be reduced to 72 hours (enough time for any bank transfer).

encrypted, I am not sure your idea of 72 hours would work, no other Registry / Registrar in the world has such a short time frame. UniForum’s new .co.za EPP solution is prepaid and follows International standards of Accredited Registrars (https://www.registry.net.za)

 

[encrypted]

encrypted, I am not sure your idea of 72 hours would work, no other Registry / Registrar in the world has such a short time frame. UniForum’s new .co.za EPP solution is prepaid and follows International standards of Accredited Registrars (https://www.registry.net.za)

I agree with going pure epp, but the email thing is still there and it allows 30 days, that is why the domain parkers are having so much fun. They're only paying if someone bites.

Wayne, I like what you did by getting in early and building a white label solution. There are also quite a few others who either did their own integrations or used WHMCS. Domains are now theoretically cheaper when not going direct and there are enough resellers. So either 30 days should become 72 hours (worst case) or the email system should be shot (Best case).

 

[Domains.co.za (Wayne)]

I agree with going pure epp, but the email thing is still there and it allows 30 days, that is why the domain parkers are having so much fun. They're only paying if someone bites.

I stand to be corrected but as far as I know the DNS of new domains registered on Legacy are not added to the zone until paid. Also new domain registrations on Legacy cost R75 where EPP is cheaper.

Wayne, I like what you did by getting in early and building a white label solution.

Thank you

Domains are now theoretically cheaper when not going direct and there are enough resellers. So either 30 days should become 72 hours (worst case) or the email system should be shot (Best case).

If you look at the ZACR Registry stats, almost 50% of .co.za domains are now on EPP and thats basically in the last year, so how much time does the Legacy system really have left?

 

[encrypted]

I stand to be corrected but as far as I know the DNS of new domains registered on Legacy are not added to the zone until paid. Also new domain registrations on Legacy cost R75 where EPP is cheaper.

They're not added to the zone, correct. But they do get reserved, so nobody else can register.

If you look at the ZACR Registry stats, almost 50% of .co.za domains are now on EPP and thats basically in the last year, so how much time does the Legacy system really have left?

If you recall the amount of time they opened the few amendments up for comments I am pretty sure the email system has at least another 2 years of life behind it. Uniforum should not be taking direct applications at this point in time already, those should be going directly to the EPP resellers. The ISP market is tough, I don't think they should be competing with Uniforum.

I also find it weird, that the squatters get the domains so quickly. I have seen it happen before domain gets deleted, squatter there in 5 mins. The OP is complaining about it and it's a real problem. The most concerning part to me is it almost appears like the squatters have a list of these domains. Whether they bot trawl the entire thing to make these lists I don't know.

 

[Domains.co.za (Wayne)]

In principal I agree with a lot of what you are saying but the decisions / rules / policies are made by ZACR.

 

[House]

Well, if there are any truth to this, I will definitely be making use of my contacts and go straight to Ministerial level and have an investigation started into Uniforum for a number of offences here. But, let's wait and see. A full audit of their system, registration dates, deletion dates, etc., will reveal a lot.

 

[House]

Also, what I think should happen is that we should follow China in regards to domain registrations.

Domain registrations should only be open to South African residents and companies. Large companies with International trademarks are fine, they should be able to register their domains.

This way we will get rid of large international companies, registering all good domains and parking them. These domains are gone forever and will never contribute towards the Internet here in SA or abroad.

 

[YellowRandolf]

I also find it weird, that the squatters get the domains so quickly. I have seen it happen before domain gets deleted, squatter there in 5 mins. The OP is complaining about it and it's a real problem. The most concerning part to me is it almost appears like the squatters have a list of these domains. Whether they bot trawl the entire thing to make these lists I don't know.

If it was only 5 minutes, SA would be dimensions behind the rest of the world (again). I got my snapper system setup for 1 minute intervals, but I rarely snapped any of the expiring domains for the last 2 years, hence "they" are much more advanced by now, I assume they hammer the registry's server in second intervals when the deletions are really happening. And yes - it's very easy to generate these 'lists', as Uniforum - as most other registries out there - publishes the delection schedules publicly...

RJ

 

[Swa]

House, I would urge you to do it anyway. Uniforum is enabling domain squatters. All they have to do when queried (and they aren't even queried) is to say they intend on using the domains, even if they have hundreds that have been inactive for years.

 

[WILKENS]

The biggest cybersquatter might be Deon Venter from MOBICORP who stole saa.co.za (just an example). Don't know if there is a US company behind him.

 

[Bosvark@]

The biggest cybersquatter might be Deon Venter from MOBICORP who stole saa.co.za (just an example). Don't know if there is a US company behind him.

Or he was thinking they will buy the domain from him at massive costs..

 

[server-admins.net]

I also find it weird, that the squatters get the domains so quickly. I have seen it happen before domain gets deleted, squatter there in 5 mins. The OP is complaining about it and it's a real problem. The most concerning part to me is it almost appears like the squatters have a list of these domains. Whether they bot trawl the entire thing to make these lists I don't know.

It may be too late to suggest this, and even if it wasnt, knowing the relucancy of Uniform to do anything that benefits themselves is an undertstatement, but what they could have done many years ago was to impliment a system which required authenticated users access to billing information on a domain.

This would have allowed Uniform to cut down on squatters, and easily track down how and where they were running their checks, BUT, at the end of the day I suspect that Uniform doesnt have a concern about this else it would have been attended to years back.

 

[House]

It may be too late to suggest this, and even if it wasnt, knowing the relucancy of Uniform to do anything that benefits themselves is an undertstatement, but what they could have done many years ago was to impliment a system which required authenticated users access to billing information on a domain.

This would have allowed Uniform to cut down on squatters, and easily track down how and where they were running their checks, BUT, at the end of the day I suspect that Uniform doesnt have a concern about this else it would have been attended to years back.

I agree, I do not think this is an issue for Uniforum. From a business point of view it would make sense for them to allow the whole world to register domain names, especially domain squatters - who often register 200, 500 even a 1000 domains within a year period, much more they would make from normal South Africans. It will be interesting to see what % of co.za domains have been purchased by squatters and are just parked - hoping to lure someone to pay thousands or tens of thousands of dollars.

 

[calvin-]

As the person who usually 'pushes the button', I can tell you how it works.

On the legacy side, once the accounts department gives us the go ahead, the process is started.
Certain prohibitions are put in place to prevent any domains which are about to be deleted being marked as paid.
The deletion date on http://www.coza.net.za/schedule.shtml is then changed from green to yellow - this
normally launches a large number of queries to our system for a small select group of names.

We generate a list of names to be deleted, compare it to the ones we are getting hammered for, and process those.

These are snapped up within milliseconds - here's the create timestamps for one of the popular ones in the current run:
28/05/2013 16:16:33.24816
28/05/2013 16:16:33.223105
28/05/2013 16:16:33.192797
28/05/2013 16:16:33.169287

interestingly the 'winner' was a local - guess maybe latency counts?

This normally allows our systems to settle down and for the non-drop catchers to have decent service.

We normally schedule these things for a Friday, when system load is lowest.

You can see when the current run was started by checking the timestamp on the page (currently 28 May 2013 15:01 SAST) - the time is purely co-incidental, and was done according to my work scheduling, after the accounts department gave me to go-ahead.

There were around 7000 domains on the old legacy regime, and around 700 domain on the new legacy regime (ie on the shortened schedule).

Squatters do not like the new regime - they don't get traffic till they pay us, and the people who may be interested in the names can not be pointed to a sales page - it really dents their business model. The speculators don't really care that much - they intend paying for their domains, and typically do not register domains that correspond to trademarks and so forth.

On the EPP side - deletions are discrete and timer based - I think the thread that processes the timers runs twice a minute - it's all automated.

 

[House]

As the person who usually 'pushes the button', I can tell you how it works.

On the legacy side, once the accounts department gives us the go ahead, the process is started.
Certain prohibitions are put in place to prevent any domains which are about to be deleted being marked as paid.
The deletion date on http://www.coza.net.za/schedule.shtml is then changed from green to yellow - this
normally launches a large number of queries to our system for a small select group of names.

We generate a list of names to be deleted, compare it to the ones we are getting hammered for, and process those.

These are snapped up within milliseconds - here's the create timestamps for one of the popular ones in the current run:
28/05/2013 16:16:33.24816
28/05/2013 16:16:33.223105
28/05/2013 16:16:33.192797
28/05/2013 16:16:33.169287

interestingly the 'winner' was a local - guess maybe latency counts?

This normally allows our systems to settle down and for the non-drop catchers to have decent service.

We normally schedule these things for a Friday, when system load is lowest.

You can see when the current run was started by checking the timestamp on the page (currently 28 May 2013 15:01 SAST) - the time is purely co-incidental, and was done according to my work scheduling, after the accounts department gave me to go-ahead.

There were around 7000 domains on the old legacy regime, and around 700 domain on the new legacy regime (ie on the shortened schedule).

Squatters do not like the new regime - they don't get traffic till they pay us, and the people who may be interested in the names can not be pointed to a sales page - it really dents their business model. The speculators don't really care that much - they intend paying for their domains, and typically do not register domains that correspond to trademarks and so forth.

On the EPP side - deletions are discrete and timer based - I think the thread that processes the timers runs twice a minute - it's all automated.

Thanks for the reply Calvin

Someone just told me yesterday that it would be virtually impossible to register deleted domains, mainly due to the fact that preference are given to large companies or squatters using automated software. I did not know if this was really true.

I have to admin that I managed to get a great domain this morning after it had been deleted.

 

[calvin-]

the large guys are generally slower than the small and nimble guys with brains.

looking for at those timestamps - the guy able to shave miliseconds will be more successful - so the guy able to program at the socket level in C is probably gonna trump the guy who has to use java and the associated libraries to make socket connections.

You simply don't get the large guys like mweb or hetzner drop catching...