Unscientific hype about flooding will cost us dear

Joined
Mar 6, 2004
Messages
41,689
Why do climate change scientists like computer models so much? :whistling:

Intellectual dishonesty from scientists... no ways...

Daily Telegraph

An insight into this was given by a paper published by Nature on February 17, which claimed to show for the first time how man-made climate change greatly increases the risk of flood damage. Among the eight authors of the paper are two of the most influential scientists at the heart of the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, Prof Peter Stott of the UK Met Office’s Hadley Centre and Dr Myles Allen, head of Oxford’s Climate Dynamics Group. Two of their co-authors are from Risk Management Solutions (RMS), a California-based firm which is the world leader in advising the insurance industry on climate change.

The study, based entirely on computer models, focused on the exceptional flooding that took place in England and Wales in the autumn of 2000. Its conclusion – that climate change could increase the chance of flooding by up to 90 per cent – was widely publicised, without questioning, by all the usual media cheerleaders for global warming, led by the BBC’s Richard Black (“Climate change increases flood risk, researchers say”).

When less partisan observers examined the paper, however, they were astonished. Although Nature has long been a leading propagandist for man-made climate change, this example seemed truly bizarre. Why had this strangely opaque study been based solely on the results of a series of computer models – mainly provided by the Hadley Centre and RMS – and not on any historical data about rainfall and river flows?

The Met Office’s own records show no upward trend in UK rainfall between 1961 and 2004. Certainly autumn 2000 showed an unusual rainfall maximum, but it was exceeded in 1930. The graph between then and 2010 shows no significant upward trend. While 2000 may have seen a lot of rain, 1768 and 1872 were even wetter. In the real world, the data show no evidence of an increase in UK rainfall at all. Any idea that there is one seemed to be entirely an artefact of the computer models.

On Friday came the fullest and most expert dissection of the Nature paper so far, published on the Watts Up With That website by Willis Eschenbach, a very experienced computer modeller. His findings are devastating. After detailed analysis of the study’s multiple flaws, he sums up by accusing Nature of “trying to pass off the end-result of a long daisy-chain of specifically selected, untested, unverified, un-investigated computer models as valid, falsifiable, peer-reviewed science”.

His conclusion is worth quoting at some length: “When your results represent the output of four computer models, fed into a fifth computer model, whose output goes to a sixth computer model, which is calibrated against a seventh computer model, and then your results are compared to a series of different results from the fifth computer model, but run with different parameters, in order to show that flood risks have increased from greenhouse gases…” you cannot pretend that this is “a valid representation of reality”, let alone “a sufficiently accurate representation of reality to guide our future actions”.

This is precisely why the Nature study is of such significance – because it will undoubtedly be used to guide future actions, which will in one way or another impact on all our lives.
 

Alan

Honorary Master
Joined
Sep 30, 2005
Messages
62,475
Reminds me of the predicted soon to be extinct English snow flake lol


nasa-satellite-photo-snow-covered-britain-7th-jan-2010.jpg
 

oRiX

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2010
Messages
211
Reminds me of the predicted soon to be extinct English snow flake lol


nasa-satellite-photo-snow-covered-britain-7th-jan-2010.jpg

Ireland seems pretty green there :/

I think the main reason why environmental scientists like computer models so much is because most of the theorized results of study are based on educated assumption, there are millions of factors that combine to form the net result of the weather we experience. computer models assist in this by being capable of factoring in all known factor through the use of programming.

There is yet to be a fully accurate computer model.

All these guys did was say that climate change will increase flooding. For whatever reason the decided not to elaborate on any other reasoning, but to deny an entire theory for the actions a few people is not very bright either. Whether or not climate change is real has yet to be completely proven.
 
Last edited:

w1z4rd

Karmic Sangoma
Joined
Jan 17, 2005
Messages
49,747
Another bat crazy thread from resident teabaggers.

This thread is a perfect example of a Malema level intelligence thread. Pity you guys did so much woodwork and not enough science at school.

People who deny anthropic climate change are like people who deny evolution. They are normally the result of a wonderful woodwork and rugby Apartheid education and completely clueless as to what either is.

Dont stop reading the Huisgenooit and You guys ;)

Science deniers.... what failures.
 
Last edited:

Ancalagon

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 23, 2010
Messages
18,140
Oh god...

Nowhere does it say that we deny it, rather that we deny A) its purported extremely serious side effects, B) how responsible we humans are for it.

I mean, no one can deny that the climate is changing. The point is, like this study illustrates, scientists and decision makers sometimes interpret the evidence in the wrong way, leading to doomsday scenarios, many of which have had to be retracted.

w1z4rd, why not do something useful for the debate and comment on this particular study? Why is it valid or invalid? If you just criticize us for not going along with the flow, then you're not helping the debate. You're just lumping us all together and labelling us as crazy and/or stupid, not conducive to scientific debate.
 

<?php?>

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2010
Messages
367
Dont stop reading the Huisgenooit and You guys ;)

Science deniers.... what failures.

++1,

Ignorance is bliss. The climate is shifting drastically, and this trend will accelerate. It's a good time for a Wake-up call!!

Accidently busted my car’s engine last week by driving into apparently shallow water pach that had accumulated in the middle of a road, just a couple of blocks from my house, never before had rain water accumulated in this extent there before and within minutes of me getting stuck, several other vehicles suffered a similar fate.

Bloemfontein up until recently, used to be a rather dry place, almost semi Karoo.
 

w1z4rd

Karmic Sangoma
Joined
Jan 17, 2005
Messages
49,747
Oh god...

Nowhere does it say that we deny it, rather that we deny A) its purported extremely serious side effects, B) how responsible we humans are for it.
Thats nice.

I mean, no one can deny that the climate is changing.
Which is new, took me months to teach you lots that ;) The climate change deniers were here :D Now they have shifted their dodgy positions.

The point is, like this study illustrates, scientists and decision makers sometimes interpret the evidence in the wrong way,
OMG! They got it wrong!! OMG! Scientists know they get it wrong, hence peer review and empirical requirements.

w1z4rd, why not do something useful for the debate and comment on this particular study? Why is it valid or invalid? If you just criticize us for not going along with the flow, then you're not helping the debate.

Im not going to debate this because its stupid. Im not going to argue to prove the existence of unicorns as well. Its stupid dude. Denying anthropic climate change is complete pseudoscience, and no amount of rational evidence is going to convince science deniers of anything. I also know it doesnt say that in the OP, one would need to understand the OP`er and his pattern of posts on this topic to understand my response. /sigh

The science is there, the studies are there, the research is there.

Wow, a 11 year old computer simulation that simulated weather predictions a decade in advance proved to be inaccurate. Hooray. /sleep

Anyone who thinks this is evidence of scientific deception needs to be removed from the gene pool. Getting it wrong is a good thing in science.

Could you point out this disputed research anywhere here? http://www.ipcc-data.org/

You're just lumping us all together and labelling us as crazy and/or stupid, not conducive to scientific debate.
I dont believe you for a second care about scientific debate, if you did, you would read the actual science. Try pull another one. You are involved in a political debate, dont lie and pretend its science when you cant be bothered to actually read the science.

If you really cared about the truth you would become familiar and understand the science here: http://www.ipcc-data.org/

The same thing happens with all science, whether it be science deniers that attacked scientists for theorizing the atom, or whether it was redneck hicks denying evolution. This is so common and so bleh... they all claim to be doing this for science... just like you.
 
Last edited:

Techne

Honorary Master
Joined
Sep 28, 2008
Messages
12,851
Wow, people that believe in AGW (although unsure of its magnitude or impact), trust the scientific method (which is purportedly self-correcting) and point out to flawed scientific findings by making use of science are labelled as "science deniers" and all kinds of other silly things...

Strange world this is.

"removed from the gene pool"... hopefully there aren't people with political power that share such extremist, fundamentalist views.
 
Last edited:

Ancalagon

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 23, 2010
Messages
18,140
Wow, people that believe in AGW (although unsure of its magnitude or impact), trust the scientific method (which is purportedly self-correcting) and point out to flawed scientific findings by making use of science are labelled as "science deniers" and all kinds of other silly things...

Strange world this is.

"removed from the gene pool"... hopefully there aren't people with political power that such extremist, fundamentalist views.

For once I find myself agreeing with you. This is scary to me, that we arent allowed to debate either the science of the political implications because otherwise we are science deniers, idiots and criminals. Yet wizard wont even offer a critique as to why this particular paper was so flawed.

I think the fact that opinions are so polarized over this issue, and no middle ground is allowed, is more scary than the implications of AGW itself. To me, this represents a corruption of science itself, if we arent allowed to question it.
 

w1z4rd

Karmic Sangoma
Joined
Jan 17, 2005
Messages
49,747
For once I find myself agreeing with you.
Yeah you would. lol. Birds of the feather. Enjoy your science denial friend fest :D

Ill leave the Malema`s to tell us how all the scientists are wrong and to tell us how much more than you guys know more than the scientists who dedicate their lives to the field.

Over to you chaps, this should be entertaining :)
 

Techne

Honorary Master
Joined
Sep 28, 2008
Messages
12,851
For once I find myself agreeing with you. This is scary to me, that we arent allowed to debate either the science of the political implications because otherwise we are science deniers, idiots and criminals. Yet wizard wont even offer a critique as to why this particular paper was so flawed.

I think the fact that opinions are so polarized over this issue, and no middle ground is allowed, is more scary than the implications of AGW itself. To me, this represents a corruption of science itself, if we arent allowed to question it.
Luckily science is not a democracy or in the business of reaching a consensus. Those are things that ideologues trying to abuse science need to understand.

Yeah you would. lol. Birds of the feather. Enjoy your science denial friend fest :D
Oh stop with the compliments, it is not like you :).
 

w1z4rd

Karmic Sangoma
Joined
Jan 17, 2005
Messages
49,747
If anyone is seriously confused about this issue, and/or think they know why anthropic climate change is false (you should be able to win a Nobel science award for this!), feel free to ask in a forum that has real climate scientists in it (rather than our creationist pushing specialists from mybb).

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?board=32.0

A great place to ask to get real answers if you are still confused despited the mountains of data avaliable at http://www.ipcc-data.org/

If you really cared about scientific debate, thats where you would debate about this issue (with real climate scientists). If not, ure a fake. If you really believed in what you were typing you would test it with real scientists. However, I think most of the science deniers wont bother.
 

Techne

Honorary Master
Joined
Sep 28, 2008
Messages
12,851
And of course don't forget to visit science blogs such as the "Best Science Blog of 2011". Lots of good science there.

"creationist pushing specialists from mybb"? Where are these YECs pretending to be climate scientists btw? Yet another straw man, you really need to learn how to debate or discuss a topic in a proper manner dude.
 

BCO

Honorary Master
Joined
Dec 17, 2004
Messages
13,229
From The Telegraph (who, laughably, imply that they're non-partisan) article:

The study, based entirely on computer models, focused on the exceptional flooding that took place in England and Wales in the autumn of 2000. Its conclusion – that climate change could increase the chance of flooding by up to 90 per cent – was widely publicised, without questioning, by all the usual media cheerleaders for global warming, led by the BBC’s Richard Black (“Climate change increases flood risk, researchers say”).

That's NOT what the Pall et all article said. Even the title of the article is clear - "Anthropogenic greenhouse gas contribution to flood risk in England and Wales in autumn 2000." Further, The Telegraph is misrepresenting the conclusions.

The Nature article says "The precise magnitude of the anthropogenic contribution remains uncertain, but in nine out of ten cases our model results indicate that twentieth-century anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions increased the risk of floods occurring in England and Wales in autumn 2000 by more than 20%, and in two out of three cases by more than 90%."

Who's really spewing out "hype" here?
 
Top