Warlock Help

[Esea]

Im not discrediting DPS at all. Of course it has its benifits and obvious points.
Im just saying that people like to show off there BIG DPS.. big whoop.
DPS doesnt make a boss go down, damage done does.
As a raid leader im more proud of an affliction lock who has to work his ass off staring at dot timers all the raid, compared to a crit-crazy destro lock who has high DPS because he crits for 12k every 5 seconds.
I think looking at a players DPS it is an extremly inaccurate way of judging said players skill.
Some classes can do amazing DPS yet fail at damage done.
Does that mean that a player who does 2k DPS and tops damage done if worse, or better for that matter? no..
I dont know who im arguing to or what im on about now that im finished xD

+.1 mages locks out dps my shadow priest but I out damage them on some fights

 

[Pitbull]

All good raid take Damage done per Boss fight into account and that is about all you will see in raid chat.

But I love the big AoE numbers I get in Spiderwing

However I still finish in the top 3 when it comes to boss fights. If you take the whole raid into account and not just the boss fights AoE chars (Mage, Locks) lead by Massive margens.

But I fully agree, damage done on boss is where the true players come out and all Good raids will only look at that instead of Damage done in total.

 

[Space_Cowboy]

0/13/58 very good on dual spec i have 0/41/30 aswell

All depends where i Raid and HC's

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Turalyon&n=Panalogistix

need to replace some items still but on 490 Imba

 

[Skurm]

I dont know who im arguing to or what im on about now that im finished xD

Heh, neither do I. As usual the truth lies somewhere in between. Guys who do high overall damage but relatively lowish DPS can't be relied upon for fights where bursting down adds is necessary, and guys who hit hard and fast but can't keep it up for long can't be relied upon to help nuke the boss before he enrages (no-one wants to see a mage wanding halfway through the fight).

Ideal DPS can do both, as needed.

damage done on boss is where the true players come

Hmm, good to know. I guess when I eventually get to Ignis adds I'll just coast along and let everyone else do the hard work. -_-

 

[alchamy]

So many facets to an utterly massive game.
I have yet to see a completely correct answer to these types of questions.

Indeed, when you look at spells scripts and coefficients you start noticing how complex it really is. The difference between a good player and an amazing player is in the detail. Think about a paladin dropping a judgement right before a poly lands so that the recoil can break the poly, that could be the difference between success in failure in arena (as we saw in the MLG tourney for those who watched)

Im not discrediting DPS at all. Of course it has its benifits and obvious points.
Im just saying that people like to show off there BIG DPS.. big whoop.

Agreed, there is a whole lot more to a good player and "DPS" is a small part of the package. I guess most people focus on DPS initially since it is easier to compare and measure and a fair guideline. DPS at least gives most people a clue of their potential damage output assuming they can stay alive.

 

[Skurm]

High DPS mean you're at least gearing more or less right, so it's a good indicator you're on the right track. People with High DPS but low damage done probably have mana issues, people with low DPS but comparatively good damage done probably have to look at issues like hit and crit. High DPS is usually inextricably linked to high overall damage, too, unless you're slacking off. Looking at both is, thus, a good way for a raid leader to fault diagnose.

 

[BelAl]

Well either slacking off Skurm or:
a) dead for quite a bit of the fight
b) mana issues (as you mentioned) or
c) managing your aggro.

DPS is measured by dividing total damage by time spent in the fight >> so higher dps should probably be most damage too. Anyway the technicalities are a little pointless because raiding is not about Aim-Point-Shoot because of the various tactics that need to be employed.

Take the Gluth fight for instance.. what does that do to the poor frost mage's dps when all he/she is doing is kiting the Zombie Chow? And yet.. if you leave the zombies and focus on gluth you have zero chance of ever downing the boss.

So comparing and waving victory flags about how many thousands of dps you're doing doesn't always count for much in my book. (FYI I have a fire Mage)

However... with the Enrage timers on quite a few of the WotLK bosses you need to focus on more damage in a shorter space of time (i.e. DPS) otherwise its a guaranteed countdown to a wipe. It doesnt matter if you're top of the damage done log but the bottom of the DPS because Thaddius is gonna take out a can 'o whipass on your raid group after the 5mins are up.

SO if you;re happy to do DPS.. woot! And if you;re happy to be at the bottom of the aggro table with the highest overall damage.. kudo's to you too but you;re probably going to be smashedd by that enrage time soon.

 

[Skurm]

the technicalities are a little pointless because raiding is not about Aim-Point-Shoot because of the various tactics that need to be employed.

Precisely.

I don't like focusing too much on 'zomg mah dps is ooobeeerr' any more or less than 'mah daymage dun is da most'. Both are diagnostic tools but by far not the sole or even most important methods you should be using to evaluate raiders. You need to be looking at a variety of factors - how much heals they're soaking up (ie whether they're standing in fires or not), how much decursing they're doing, how effective their cc is. Spending time moving out of fires, helping with decurses, assisting healers by snaring loose mobs and who knows what else is going to mean your overall damage done suffers. It's quite small minded, as a raid leader, to simply bring up the DPS and Damage Done meters, glance at the figures and chew out somebody for being a bit lower on said meters than some retard hunter standing in a bonfire spamming steady shot while raidhealers keep throwing heals his way because 'he's da gud'est deepeeess in dur guild'.

Best DPS/Damage tip is always, stay alive. You don't do much dps lying facedown in the dirt. This means, warlocks - careful with those lifetaps, and it's why I like Affliction for raiding - Sipon Life is an amazing tool - anything that helps you strain healers less.

So comparing and waving victory flags about how many thousands of dps you're doing doesn't always count for much in my book.

I'm only saying that in some situations, high DPS is crucial. One thing it means is that being able to burst well often means more mobility when it's needed, and dodging all manner of fires in Wrath raiding means that being able to burst in between dodging fireballs, pools of acid, etc is perhaps more important than many seem to give credit for, never mind nuking adds(which is really a recurring theme even on most boss fights and something everyone seem to forget the importance of).

 

[Pitbull]

Heh, neither do I. As usual the truth lies somewhere in between. Guys who do high overall damage but relatively lowish DPS can't be relied upon for fights where bursting down adds is necessary, and guys who hit hard and fast but can't keep it up for long can't be relied upon to help nuke the boss before he enrages (no-one wants to see a mage wanding halfway through the fight).

Ideal DPS can do both, as needed.


Hmm, good to know. I guess when I eventually get to Ignis adds I'll just coast along and let everyone else do the hard work. -_-

You know that Damage done per boss fight is a built in feature in the latest DPS meter right? It starts collecting all damage done from the second the boss is pulled till the Boss dies. This = ALL damage done in that period of time.
This includes adds.

If you read it as damage done to boss only =

 

[Pitbull]

High DPS mean you're at least gearing more or less right, so it's a good indicator you're on the right track. People with High DPS but low damage done probably have mana issues, people with low DPS but comparatively good damage done probably have to look at issues like hit and crit. High DPS is usually inextricably linked to high overall damage, too, unless you're slacking off. Looking at both is, thus, a good way for a raid leader to fault diagnose.

With this example, can you pls tell me then how come Affliction Locks suck at overall damage done but win DPS/Damage done on boss fights?

I can answer this for you:

DoT's take time to reach their full effectiveness. On trash the DoT's don't even come close to what they are capable of. That is what this thread is about "Warlock Help"

Talking about a Mage on enchancement Shaman DPS vs Warlock DPS on trash is like saying a sheep can outrun a scrambler in the veld But give a sheep will outrun a scrambler in the bushveld. It's all about where what shines. It can't be compared to each other. Each has their playfield and should be judged against said playfield

 

[Skurm]

If you read it as damage done to boss only

I mean trash packs. For example, there are some Ulduar trash packs later on that are brutal. If everyone had the 'only boss fights r importants lulz' attitude on these, raids wouldnt even be getting to those bosses. It's a selfish, lazy and narrowminded viewpoint, imo. If I were raidleading, you give 101% throughout the raid, not just on bosses, or GTFO plx kthx.

DoT's take time to reach their full effectiveness..Talking about a Mage on enchancement Shaman DPS vs Warlock DPS on trash is like...

Actually, the concept remains rather similiar. I change my rotations on trash because I don't get time to chain 3 arcane blasts before i barrage or missiles - if i did the third one wouldn't hit and I'd waste a second's worth of dps time channeling that AB, and my dps would drop significantly. A warlock, even affliction, can do the same thing. In instances on my lock I for eg wouldn't bother with CoA, just drop Corruption on each of the mobs and then aoe, and my DPS on trash was just fine. If you're putting a stack of long duration dots on a trash mob you're being an idiot. L2Adapt. You have the tools to do so.

 

[Pitbull]

So you are saying an Affliction Warlock can push top DPS on trash mobs?

So if my Warlock does 4K DPS on a boss fight and I only manage 2K DPS on trash then I fail ?

 

[Skurm]

No, but if your long dots arent running their full duration, don't use them. Shadowbolt spam or whatever. Point is, you do what you can to help out even if your build isn't optimal, not slack off and go afk because of the perception that affliction locks suck on trash.

All of that aside, I am most firmly of the opinion that even though affliction warlocks can't be expected to do good DPS on trash, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. To that end, I've begun to play with a variety of alternate tactics for trash mobs, and while I've yet to achieve any truly great level of success, I have managed to put forth a decidedly respectable showing on individual trash pulls now and again. Once or twice even managing to get the top spot! But I'm getting ahead of myself.

Before you really begin to think about how to do good damage on trash mobs, you must try to understand why it is that affliction has so much trouble with them in the first place. Affliction Warlocks are sometimes called "DOT locks," after their primary form of attack. DOT, as everyone knows, is the acronym for Damage Over Time. And that, there, is the root of the problem. Time. Affliction warlocks require some measure of time before they can really begin to do damage.

I've done extensive testing of affliction damage using things like real time graphs, as well as friends who agreed to serve as a control group of sorts. What I've noticed is that even several seconds into my rotation, my damage output is altogether pitiful when I'm using my full casting sequence. Then, about 25-35 seconds into combat, my numbers suddenly shoot up at an astronomical speed, as all my dot ticks start going off in force. Before this, however, my numbers would shame a level 65 elemental shaman.

At this point, the issue should be clear. When fighting trash mobs, each target is only going to be alive for a scant few seconds, meaning that the 'shooting up' part of my damage never happens. Ergo, it would seem reasonable to conclude that the only way to really do damage against such mobs is to either significantly alter my rotation, or respec--something I'm not willing to do when my damage output in more important situations is phenomenal.

Altering the rotation, however, is a tricky business, because it either requires memorizing every trash mob in every instance, or it requires tactical senses good enough to analyse a target mob's life expectancy after a glance at it's HP, and formulate a viable tactic based on that. Given the near impossibility of the former, I fear I am stuck with attempting the latter, even given my lackluster tactical skills.

To make things simpler, I've devised a hand full of rotations for different situations. And, whenever I find myself faced with trash pulls, I try and approximate which one of these rotations might work best for that particular pull.

Boom Theory: Seed of Corruption, Rain of Fire, and a Shadowflame now and again for good measure. If you've got a good tank, then this is by far the easiest way to go about things in larger pulls. Not just pally tanks anymore either! I've used this tactic to great success with both warrior and death knight tanks*. Be careful though, if you pull aggro you're very likely to end up dead, and if you piss the tank off, you're very likely to end up looking at a window that says "You are not in the instance group, you will be ported to [Insert Hearth Location here] in X amount of seconds."

(*No offense is intended to my feral druid buddies--I just haven't run with one since Karazhan, so I can't speak from experience.)

The Resilient Trash Mob: Some trash pulls are almost like mini-bosses in terms of how much HP they have, but that still doesn't mean you're going to be able to get your full rotation off. So I abbreviate it: Curse of Elements, Haunt, Corruption, Followed by Shadow Bolt spam, and a re-cast of Haunt whenever it's up. After the first 7 seconds of combat or so, all your casting time will be spent on direct damage casting, so you won't be losing any global cooldowns on dots that won't finish. I sometimes modify this to include Unstable Affliction as well, if the mobs are particularly hearty.

Humanoids Got No HP Humanoid trash mobs last only barely longer than nonelites do in most instances. For these, the AoE approach is by far the preferable one, but if there's only one humanoid left, or if your tank isn't comfortable with the threat created by your AoE, then your best bet is to just sit there spamming the Shadow Bolt button. These mobs will likely go down so fast that even Curse of Elements will be a waste of valuable shadow bolting time. I've considered trying to use Searing Pain on these mobs, given its shorter cast time, but the significantly lower amount of damage it does, and the significantly higher amount of threat that it pulls, makes me dubious that it will be more successful than straight up SB spam.

http://curseos.blogspot.com/2009/01/affliction-dps-on-trash.html

TL;DR? DoT Macros=fail.

 

[Skurm]

Just to drill the point through:

However, the point I’d like to make is that not all damage is equal. This has always been true, and is now especially true with the more complex Ulduar fights. So I’d like to run through some scenarios regarding where I believe YOUR individual damage is and is not important:

* Your damage is NOT important on standard trash pulls. I know it’s fun to AOE and pad your numbers, but honestly if you just sat out most trash pulls, your raid would be fine without you. Don’t get hung up on how much damage you’re doing to trash, and if someone in your raid is bragging about their damage on trash, then politely remind them that the point of raiding is to kill bosses.
* Your damage IS important on trash mobs or boss adds that have can “enrage.” The Emalon encounter is a perfect example. When an add starts to grow, the DPS has a fixed amount of time to get it down before it wipes the raid. No amount of tanking or healing can prevent the wipe from happening, so it’s up to the DPS to hit the add hard and fast. Following an Emalon fight, look at the individual player breakdowns in Recount or Wow Web Stats (the “who hit who” column) – the DPS who did the most single-target add damage are really the most valuable players in that fight, NOT the DPS who did the most total damage.
* Your damage is NOT important on generic, AOE-able boss adds. Noth the Plaguebringer is the best example in Naxx, and Razorscale is the best example in Ulduar. Assuming you are with a competent raid, the mobs in the “add phases” of those fights will die one way or another, whether you’re helping or not. Sure they’ll die a little quicker with your blizzard or flamestrike involved – but seriously, I’m sure your raid would be fine without you.

Note that the Gluth adds do NOT fall into this category, because even though they’re AOE-able, it’s very important that they die before they reach him, and therefore DPS’ing them is a central element to the fight.
* Your damage IS VERY important on “burn” phases of bosses. Here’s where mages should excel. Let’s use the Razorscale fight as an example: there’s a minute or so of fighting adds where a lot of people are going to do a lot of damage, then a 20 second or so burn phase on Razorscale himself. Your raid’s effectiveness during this burn phase determines how many add phases there are, the length of the fight, and whether your raid beats the enrage timer. So, uh, which phase do you think it’s more important to save your cooldowns for? When you look at the damage meter after the fight, pay specific attention to the people who did the most damage to Razorscale himself, because those are the players who won the fight for you.

The same is true for many other fights: the first of the Four Horseman (killing him fast frees up the tank and healer(s) to help out on the other three), the first drake in a two or three drake Sartharion attempt (gotta kill it before the second drake comes down), and XT-Deconstructor’s heart (killing it fast makes the time between heart phases shorter). These are just a few examples of times when your damage on a specific phase is more telling than your overall damage.
* Your damage is NOT particularly important on bosses without a strict enrage timer during low damage phases. Let’s go back to Kara for an example: Remember the Prince Malchezzar fight? He was basically a *****cat until he got his swords in phase 2. Your damage in phase one was not really important – as long as everyone was doing mediocre damage, it would eventually be over - that’s why your raid probably saved heroism/bloodlust for phase 2. Additionally, your raid could take it easy on Romulo and Julienne until the final phase, when the healing becomes much more of an issue.

In Naxx, the same applies for the two adds at the start of the Thaddius fight. Thaddius’ strict enrage timer doesn’t activate until they’re dead, so no reason to use your cooldowns to kill them – the damage you do to them is basically meaningless, so long as your raid is burning them down. This is also true for the first phase of the Kel’Thuzad fight – as long as the adds are dying, your DPS number is not particularly important (now, if your raid is actually having issues with that phase, then it may become important).With Ulduar being new, I wouldn’t classify any of the bosses this way for the time being, at least for my guild. However, for a boss like XT, the damage you do to the heart and the effectiveness with which you handle the adds is probably a much better indictor of your performance than just the raw total damage number.

These are just a few examples of situations in which your DPS matters and when it doesn’t. I’m sure there are exceptions, but I just want to get the idea out there that sometimes the meters aren’t telling the full story.

http://magekarch.wordpress.com/2009/05/21/when-does-your-damage-matter/

It's all about context.

 

[Pitbull]

I agree with not trying. My point is as an Affliction lock you don't have the +Fire damage. Even spamming AoE doesn't bring in much DPS. No matter how hard you push to get good DPS going, you will never reach full tilt on your DPS going through trash.

That was the point from the start, no one said go AFK on trash fights. But the true colors of a Warlock comes out in Boss fight. Pure and Simple

 

[Skurm]

Well, dual spec. What else you gonna use it for? Offtanking? Healing? PVP? (lol warlocks in pvp, LOL)

 

[Pitbull]

Well, dual spec. What else you gonna use it for? Offtanking? Healing? PVP? (lol warlocks in pvp, LOL)

Why would I dual spec 2 PvE spec's ?

Pls also explain why you LOL @ Warlock PvP ? Appart from Rogues I have no trouble with any other class

 

[zippy]

That was the point from the start, no one said go AFK on trash fights. But the true colors of a Warlock comes out in Boss fight. Pure and Simple

i'm leveling my unarmed skill in 25man naxx atm on the trash. 397/400 atm. Last week got my staves skill to 400 with lvl 34 green staff. raid leader commented on my epicness. I responded by saying that despite its greeness, its has excellent balance and anyway, skill is more important than stats !!!

 

[Skurm]

Why would I dual spec 2 PvE spec's ?

Because other classes do, and often have to? Warriors speccing fury and prot for example? Shamans speccing enhance and resto? Just because mages/locks/hunters/rogues are pure dps, doesn't necessarily mean we're exempt from that necessity. Personally at 80 I will spec frost (or possibly fire if the Living Bomb change goes through) for AoE because Arcane fails.
Fact is, if you're a hardcore raider and don't PVP, what else are you going to use dual spec for? You can whine about a spec being bad on trash or you can spend some gold and solve the problem.

Pls also explain why you LOL @ Warlock PvP ?

http://wowmb.net/forums/f43/34901-gc_lock_pvp_short/

Melee is dominant in pvp atm, and of the ranged classes, warlocks have the hardest time right now dealing with melee.

 

[TheRidDlerX]

So you are saying an Affliction Warlock can push top DPS on trash mobs?

So if my Warlock does 4K DPS on a boss fight and I only manage 2K DPS on trash then I fail ?

Not in so many words - but depending on the toughness and density of the trash packs an Afflic lock pulling 4k on bosses should be able to pull roughly the same on trash. Being Affliction u will most definately have 5/5 in Improved Corruption, making SoC spam ur way of handling trash. Because SoC takes a while to proc tho (depending on the dps of your group) RoF is better for packs that die in 2-4s. Keep in mind also that for SoC to work at its most efficient the more in the pack the better, when it comes down to 2 or 3 mobs u can start single targeting.

EDIT : Bleh i Fail @ not reading the next post