Watch your stuff on the beaches

[Slootvreter]

So you really think that the mere act of allowing a member of the public to see that you own a material good IS an "invitation to take it"?

That is sad. You have a right to peaceably own property and it's inscribed into the law, nowhere does it say "so long as you keep your goods hidden from public view at all times" ... the laws in effect state that a public display of ownership of property ISN'T an invitation to take it and that nobody may do so and that they would be punished for doing so, possibly with jailtime - how you get from that to "invitation" I don't know. The logical conclusion to your reasoning is that nobody must ever let anybody know or see that they own anything at all ... maybe bring your stuff home quickly and use it only in the seclusion of your own home ever, and dress like a poor man in public, never enjoying your PSP or camera or iPod anywhere except in private. If you don't see that that's beyond absurd, I find that saddening.

Imagine a judge telling a victim it was his own stupidity for leaving, say, a laptop in full view, and then letting the thief go, lol. If the idea of a judge saying something like that still registers as absurd to you, then there is hope, because if you understand why a judge shouldn't say something like that then you might be able to see why it's just as ridiculous for anyone else to say it.

Thank you.

 

[Dr.G]

Just dig a hole in the sand, lay a towl inside it, put belongings in and then another towl ontop( Spread out) .

 

[Angelica]

So you really think that the mere act of allowing a member of the public to see that you own a material good IS an "invitation to take it"?

Yes, I do think so. I will not walk with my camera around my neck advertising that I have expensive equipment.

I am making myself a soft target.

First, I am a woman, and a very slender one at that. I don't have the power to win against a strong male.

So I use my logic and think what will be the best thing to do. Do I walk with it around my neck and say 'hey look what I got'? Or do I try and conceal it as much as possible and only take it out when absolutely necessary?

You might take the more brave option, I am sorry, but I am not brave....shoot me for it.

That is sad. You have a right to peaceably own property and it's inscribed into the law, nowhere does it say "so long as you keep your goods hidden from public view at all times" ... the laws in effect state that a public display of ownership of property ISN'T an invitation to take it and that nobody may do so and that they would be punished for doing so, possibly with jailtime - how you get from that to "invitation" I don't know.

Nowhere did I claim that you have no right, can you please quote me where I stated such absurdity?

You are making a classic strawman fallacy.

I don't care what the law says, people must at least try to be cautious. It flies against logical reasoning to think you are untouchable.

Like I already said, the Police is losing the battle since a long time ago. The only other option you have is to try and prevent it.

That however is a choice you freely take. If you want to advertise your belongings and want to make sure the wrong eyes see it, then it stays your choice.

I like to take the prevention route.

The logical conclusion to your reasoning is that nobody must ever let anybody know or see that they own anything at all ... maybe bring your stuff home quickly and use it only in the seclusion of your own home ever, and dress like a poor man in public, never enjoying your PSP or camera or iPod anywhere except in private. If you don't see that that's beyond absurd, I find that saddening.

Strawman again. I never implied such a thing. Go and read again before you jump to unsupported conclusions.

Imagine a judge telling a victim it was his own stupidity for leaving, say, a laptop in full view, and then letting the thief go, lol. If the idea of a judge saying something like that still registers as absurd to you, then there is hope, because if you understand why a judge shouldn't say something like that then you might be able to see why it's just as ridiculous for anyone else to say it.

I was told that by the Police. In fact the case never reached the court even. Petty crime like this never gets to court people, or at least not very often. Insurance pay you out once you have a case number and once that is done, nothing more is done to search for your belongings.

I lost a laptop this way, I happen to know what I am talking about. I was stupid and left the laptop on my vehicle's back seat. I was gone for 10 minutes and on return it was gone.

The Police even gave me the blame, straight forward. Don't be fooled and think the law is on your side. In South Africa the law is against you these days. That is why I say, wake up and start smelling the coffee.

 

[Turtle]

The Police even gave me the blame, straight forward. Don't be fooled and think the law is on your side. In South Africa the law is against you these days. That is why I say, wake up and start smelling the coffee.

I hear you, but that's why I say, wake up and leave for somewhere civilized. Like I said, I *do* happen to remember the days when things were different, and when I have kids someday I want to raise them in a decent place that is more like the one I remember, since that is more enjoyable than the way we have to live now.

Simple pragmatics do dictate that one keeps ones goods hidden from view in SA (not so in many other places, if you travel a lot outside SA you'll know), and I do so, and I do even dress poorer and do try restrict my enjoyment of goods to purely private scenarios, and even feel a little "guilty" using consumer goods in front of e.g. the maid in my own home - I mean how nutty is that ... so possibly I was making a bit of a strawman (nice to run into someone else who knows what that is, especially a female - sorry to sound sexist, but it's unusual) but I don't know, I still think that it's not a strawman but the "logical conclusion of your reasoning" - in fact we're almost at that conclusion already, at least I am. But I would NEVER go so far as to shift *blame* from the perpetrator to the victim and say that someone "invited" crime. Crime is an act performed willingly BY a perpetrator TO an unwilling victim; shifting responsible agency to the point that one doesn't even regard the thief anymore as an active agent in the process is one of those modern cultural mindf-cks. Two different worldviews: (1) "A thief steals" (call that the old-fashioned view) ... more correct, not (2) "A victim, through his actions, *causes* his goods to get stolen" (notice the thief has even disappeared in this latter version - both gramatically in the sentence and in the way one mentally perceives what is happening - theft becomes something that "just happens", a supposed inevitable fatalistic rule of the universe, instead of an action taken by a specific perpetrator). No wonder crime is out of control if even the police think this way --- you CANNOT tackle crime if you mentally blame the victims and not the criminals for it. It's convenient for the police to blame anyone but themselves of course, because they're failing at their jobs.

 

[Angelica]

I hear you, but that's why I say, wake up and leave for somewhere civilized. Like I said, I *do* happen to remember the days when things were different, and when I have kids someday I want to raise them in a decent place that is more like the one I remember, since that is more enjoyable than the way we have to live now.

Not all of us have the luxury to move to other countries. Some of us have parents here that needs to be cared for, leaving them here to fend for themselves seems like the selfish thing to do... Just my personal opinion though.

I too remember the carefree days I grew up in. I could go out at night without any fear of getting raped, hijacked or killed. I could enjoy life like it was meant to be.

Now the picture has changed dramatically. Today I fear those things in broad day light. I don't know if I will reach my destination going from point A to B and really live as if I will not see the next day.

Simple pragmatics do dictate that one keeps ones goods hidden from view in SA (not so in many other places, if you travel a lot outside SA you'll know), and I do so, and I do even dress poorer and do try restrict my enjoyment of goods to purely private scenarios, and even feel a little "guilty" using consumer goods in front of e.g. the maid in my own home - I mean how nutty is that ... so possibly I was making a bit of a strawman (nice to run into someone else who knows what that is, especially a female - sorry to sound sexist, but it's unusual) but I don't know, I still think that it's not a strawman but the "logical conclusion of your reasoning" - in fact we're almost at that conclusion already, at least I am.

What I suggest is not to hide everything. All I suggest is to be cautious where you flash around what you actually have. There is a place and time for everything. Some places are just not suitable. It is kind of silly to feel 'guilty' in front of your maid, but that is you. Nobody will change it and nobody should try and change it, that is who you are. I will for instance not put on a mini skirt with lots of jewelery and walk through the streets of Hillbrow. The probability of me getting mocked and raped is bigger than when I will be going to the local mall or wherever it is regarded as being safer. I don't say victims are guilty of anything, I only try to introduce some reality into this.

I will concede that it will be wrong to say 'you invite' to be a victim. That is harsh from me. But I don't think the point I am trying to make is totally moot in this context and especially not in the situation we find ourselves today.

Oh, don't worry about 'sounding sexist', I am an unusual woman, so no offense taken.

But I would NEVER go so far as to shift *blame* from the perpetrator to the victim and say that someone "invited" crime. Crime is an act performed willingly BY a perpetrator TO an unwilling victim; shifting responsible agency to the point that one doesn't even regard the thief anymore as an active agent in the process is one of those modern cultural mindf-cks. Two different worldviews: (1) "A thief steals" (call that the old-fashioned view) ... more correct, not (2) "A victim, through his actions, *causes* his goods to get stolen" (notice the thief has even disappeared in this latter version - both gramatically in the sentence and in the way one mentally perceives what is happening - theft becomes something that "just happens", a supposed inevitable fatalistic rule of the universe, instead of an action taken by a specific perpetrator). No wonder crime is out of control if even the police think this way --- you CANNOT tackle crime if you mentally blame the victims and not the criminals for it. It's convenient for the police to blame anyone but themselves of course, because they're failing at their jobs.

I agree and already conceded that point.

 

[Turtle]

But I don't think the point I am trying to make is totally moot in this context and especially not in the situation we find ourselves today.

Certainly not; I guess essentially your comment was more one of pragmatism and mine more of idealism. One must always be practical (not disagreeing there), I just try to do so at least without allowing my own internal values and standards for how I think things "should be" to be lowered.

 

[shadow_man]

Heh I went the engen the other day to use their ATM - I took my wallet out my pocket to get my card etc and didn't see that a loose R50 in my pocket had fallen out. Some dude picked it up and ran after me to give it back. Was quite cool.

J

To put it another way...

In 1998, I went to England for a bus tour around Europe.

I was at Picadilly train station, with all my bags.
Boarded the train.
At Earl's Court I got out with bags-1... It was my camera bag (1 video recorder, 2 cameras + FIFA SWC 1998 things)

I thought the worst.

About 4 minutes later a loudspeaker rang "Will Mr. ***** please go to office ..."

I went.

There I met a policeman that asked me if "this" was my belongings.

I cried (almost), because my bag (worth about R1000 - then) was lying in the office still closed.

He said someone gave it in - a youngster.

My question is this:

What are the chances of a similar "good ending" to happen here?

 

[Slaine73]

It would be wonderful to go back to those days when a female could walk alons at night and not be worried about anything. Now a male can't even walk alone at night and not be worried. Sad.

 

[ZA.Schmidt]

I dropped a train ticket when taking out my wallet to use the ATM and this woman came after me to give it back, so there are still good people out there.

 

[Slaine73]

I dropped a train ticket when taking out my wallet to use the ATM and this woman came after me to give it back, so there are still good people out there.

True. A few months ago I left my wallet in one of the Clearwater toilets. The cleaner came running after me and gave it to me. There was quite a lot of money in there, all my cards and my ID.
I tipped the guy and felt like a bloody idiot for doing what I always tell other people not to do

 

[EtienneK]

Just dig a hole in the sand, lay a towl inside it, put belongings in and then another towl ontop( Spread out) .

Nice tip. Thanks.