We really don't know what we're doing...

Yeah, it's way too expensive. And complicated. It's the reason I left the previous company. But to do that we needed a special machine. A very special machine. When I found it they came calling....
 
TooFastTim said:
WTF are you? Canada?

Obviously not....
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Uh south africa LOL this is a south african forum.

New technology is always expensive, but as it is adopted the cost does go down. For very specialised tech like this, 'down' is relative. The question is, what price do you put on someone's life? Is there 'too much'? Obviously for X individual person there is a point of not being able to afford certain treatments but for governments / hospitals etc?
 
Well, many respondents on here are, like me, ex Saffies.

Yes that's true. The cost will come down and that's the reason I left <insert company name here>. They were and are stuck in the old way of doing things. Still first gen stuff. I wanted to go to a place where they had the kit to really push the price down.

Life, unfortunately, does have a price (as determined by those most abstract of peoples: actuaries) and it hangs out at about USD 100K.
 
TooFastTim said:
Life, unfortunately, does have a price (as determined by those abstract of peoples: actuaries) and it hangs out at about USD 100K.
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That is shockingly low. And in terms of a machine that costs upwards of $200 million to build, that is a ****-load of patients that need to go through treatment to justify the cost.
 
It is. But you have to balance cost with benefit. 100K USD is a pretty good return on investment if you're treating a kid from a middle class background where their tax paying return might be double that over 60-70 years. Chuck that at 500-1000 patients annually and it soon adds up.

Oh, 200 mill USD is a little short but right ballpark.
 
Actual cost per treatment as prescribed by UK NHS is GBP45K. Now, balance that of with an average of GBP 2,500 pa (fark me I pay nearly that every month) tax over, say, fifty years: GBP 125,000. Treatment costs at 45k? Good deal.

And that's the direct loss-of-tax-earnings costs. What about the knock-on-effects? Carers? Hospital costs etc. incurred by the resultant, possibly vegetative patient?
 
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TooFastTim said:
100K USD is a pretty good return on investment if you're treating a kid from a middle class background where their tax paying return might be double that over 60-70 years.
Click to expand...

This is when I really get why poor people are fond of socialism. I know total diversion, but the reality is that what you just said is exactly what happens when governments get to decide who gets treatment or not. They look at what your life is valued at to them, not enough value and you can suck eggs looking for treatment. All you are going to get is some kind of low-level palliative care. The rich, of course, can pay whatever necessary, so they don't count. It is the people in between rich and poor that meet the cost accounting requirements.
 
Rich or poor mate we all die. You might just get to die in better bed linen. And you don't reckon when you're karking it and you've got nothing left to offer Rupert he won't leave you on soiled bed linen?

The UK form of socialism saved my life. I'm a fan. But I'm also a realist.
 
TooFastTim said:
Rich or poor mate we all die. You might just get to die in better bed linen. And you don't reckon when you're karking it and you've got nothing left to offer Rupert he won't leave you on soiled bed linen?

The UK form of socialism saved my life. I'm a fan. But I'm also a realist.
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I'm also a realist - unless something is done to change how the poorest live, there is going to be another major revolution - and it won't be pretty. So I'm a fan of implementing a universal basic wage to replace other more limited social benefits for example. Because the have-nots are getting restless. Even those who have something, are starting to think they have nothing, and that is very dangerous.
 
I've made another cup of coffee and against my better judgment I must reply. Firstly I must qualify that by Rupert I meant Rupert Murdoch. Not Anton.

Next point: revolution? That revolution is here. It is now. It is the hordes of those who have been abandoned by their governments and administrations who flee to countries where they are and will be worthless, in the hopes of a better life. It is their own people, rulers and administrations that have failed and abandoned them. The actuarial cases I presented earlier presumed a western (for want of a better description) and reasonably responsible form of administration. A form of government that was, at least, a little bit caring.

In order to afford the western model you need a solid tax paying base. Africa has failed, in spite of 70 years of experience, to afford its peoples simple, sensible economic policies that would have granted the opportunity to develop that tax base. South Africa repeated the same mistakes. I have watched SA's cancer care go from one of the best and most advanced in the world to hogging the arse-end. Within 30 years.

If the hordes want to duke it out they would do well to remember the old adage about the maxim gun.
 
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TooFastTim said:
I've made another cup of coffee and against my better judgment I must reply. Firstly I must qualify that by Rupert I meant Rupert Murdoch. Not Anton.

Next point: revolution? That revolution is here. It is now. It is the hordes of those who have been abandoned by their governments and administrations who flee to countries where they are and will be worthless, in the hopes of a better life. It is their own people, rulers and administrations that have failed and abandoned them. The actuarial cases I presented earlier presumed a western (for want of a better description) and reasonably responsible form of administration. A form of government that was, at least, a little bit caring.

In order to afford the western model you need a solid tax paying base. Africa has failed, in spite of 70 years of experience, to afford its peoples simple, sensible economic policies that would have granted the opportunity to develop that tax base. South Africa repeated the same mistakes. I have watched SA's cancer care go from one of the best and most advanced in the world to hogging the arse-end. Within 30 years.

If the hordes want to duke it out they would do well to remember the old adage about the maxim gun.
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Somewhere along the line governments have forgotten that they are there FOR the people. I'm not sure exactly when it happened, but within my lifetime. And unless they remember this soon, they will be made to remember.
 
BeerIsNotGood... said:
The reason governments don't give a **** is because nothing limits(or can change) their power
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The thing governments hope the people never realise is how much power the people actually have. No government can continue to rule for long when the people turn against it. No matter how much they crack down. Ask any totalitarian government/evil dictatorship that has eventually been overturned in the last century alone.

For the people may have gone by the wayside, but by the will of the people still holds.



@TooFastTim The only ways to reduce costs are basic business models - reduce the cost of manufacture, increase the number of treatments. "buy cheaper / sell more". Time will take care of both. Tech almost always gets cheaper with time, and as the modality becomes more mainstream, more people will be treated with it.

As for the 'don't know WTF we are doing' bit - shhhh and don't tell anyone. It works. :) Maybe that is all you need for now, and the rest is someone else's problem, but I do completely understand the 'but I have to know what I don't know' itch. It's very frustrating when you know you know enough to know you don't know anything.
 
Zoomzoom said:
The thing governments hope the people never realise is how much power the people actually have. No government can continue to rule for long when the people turn against it. No matter how much they crack down. Ask any totalitarian government/evil dictatorship that has eventually been overturned in the last century alone.

For the people may have gone by the wayside, but by the will of the people still holds.



@TooFastTim The only ways to reduce costs are basic business models - reduce the cost of manufacture, increase the number of treatments. "buy cheaper / sell more". Time will take care of both. Tech almost always gets cheaper with time, and as the modality becomes more mainstream, more people will be treated with it.

As for the 'don't know WTF we are doing' bit - shhhh and don't tell anyone. It works. :) Maybe that is all you need for now, and the rest is someone else's problem, but I do completely understand the 'but I have to know what I don't know' itch. It's very frustrating when you know you know enough to know you don't know anything.
Click to expand...
The problem is the will is not there to begin with.

So in the end limits/changes need to be introduced
 
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