What do you charge?

In other words, you're conveniently missing (ignoring?) the fact that I was tackling only the statement, not in the context of where R13 would be doing his shoot.
Congrats.

If you'd like to start a thread discussing that in general, go for it. But the discussion is on context of R13's shoot. Which is a controlled one. Getting it right in camera when you know you're using the image for a composite or graphic design is a completely different ballgame, but we aren't discussing that there either.

In this situation, bwana is correct.
 
He could well be incorrect, again because he made the statement before knowing under what conditions this shoot would be done, and even with the conditions presented, there are many variables that nobody can foresee that may present themselves and be beyond the photographer's control (or simply not be worth trying to control versus editing the photo post-shoot).
 
*assuming what you're working on is something that would have been within your ability to control and would have involved less time and effort to 'fix' in the real world before taking the photo.
We are, this is a portrait session the OP is involved in. It's his show and a controlled situation.

I hate the 'get it right in camera' argument. Some people have temporary scarring that you can either mask out in a real darkroom, edit out in a digital photo or get a make-up artist to cover up. Sometimes it's scarring that could occur during shooting from an accident - do you waste time getting a makeup artist to fix it, costing the entire shoot time and you more money out of the pocket to pay the make-up artist, or is it something you can simply deal with using the patch and clone stamp tools?
That's ok - I consider "I'll fix it in post" to be the maxim of the lazy or inept photographer.

Maybe it's just me but I like to consider all elements of a photograph, including the background, before I take the photo. If a pole is in the way I move or have the subject move, if a wire is going to be running through the subject's head I don't waste time taking it, it takes seconds to recompose compared to minutes/hours to "fix it in post". If someone has scars light them accordingly or ask them if they want to conceal it with makeup, either by their own hand or professionally, but in my experience it easy to convince most people to leave it be.

In my books if you prefer to spend more time behind the computer fixing things than behind the camera taking photos then perhaps you're a retoucher rather than a photographer. It probably explains why so many top photographers use professional retouchers rather than doing it themselves. :)
I would hold the light for free for u guys, I need the experience. Maybe bwana will give me his 1D for that:D
No :p

Get in line :D Bwana I'll do it for the 7D :p
No :p
 
I consider "I'll fix it in post" to be the maxim of the lazy or inept photographer.

I consider photographers who stubbornly hold to a single belief and modus operandi to be the most inept of all for not embracing different ways to achieve the same (or better) results.

A photographer able to understand, appreciate and make a split-second decision of which method would be most efficient and/or yield the results they want when tackling any given 'issue' for a photo is the most adept among photographers, while one that relies purely on (trying to) get it right in camera or editing of the resulting photo is the least adept.

Sometimes you simply cannot change composition to get a better photo than one in that exact moment, whether in a controlled environment or not - compositional changes to deal with background elements, such as intersecting lines with your subject's head, say. Changing your composition may change your lighting of the model in a manner that cannot be worked with for the result you intend on getting - perhaps the lighting is fixed and thus cannot be moved, or there's no room to move your lighting equipment in, or something in the scene bounces light (or stops bouncing light) in a manner that no longer works for the shot should you move your lighting (or modifiers). And someone would go through all of this unnecessary, potentially pointless effort just to deal with a single light stand in the background they could edit out in a minute or two? Or a line, such as one on a wall in an old building that leads to a light switch? Or a crack in the wall? Or trim on the wall? Or a line in the wood of a cupboard or some other woodwork? Or of a glass-pane door?

I mean, let's take into consideration, since this is a thread about how much to charge for something, that you need to utilize more or more-expensive equipment, or assistants, or take more time, at the shoot. This costs you time and potentially money, right?
And if you have to sit for minutes to hours or even days editing your photos, that's time you can't get back that obviously also costs you money, right?
Similarly, if you subcontract the editing to someone else, that will still take time and obviously cost you money again.

If you're unable to take into consideration the various options to you and decide which will yield the most efficient use of your time and money as the photographer (and thus the best transferred costs to clients), you are not necessarily any measure of a professional nor necessarily an adept photographer.

If you rely on stubbornly trying to get every single detail right in your camera by wasting everyone's time and potentially getting an inferior shot from a creative perspective as opposed to a technical one, you're failing in your capacity as a photographer.
If you rely stubbornly on just snapping away with expensive equipment and having someone else touch up your photos until a usable result is crapped out of Saturn's rings, you're failing in your capacity as both a photographer and a businessman.

Balance.

Balance doesn't come into the 'get it right in camera' argument I've heard from every single person out there to ever use it, and most distressingly, I've primarily heard it used by 'photographers' that are, in my opinion, actually somewhere between ****ty or amateurish in their final output - if I had to guess, I'd say they use it as a kind of compensatory mechanism for their own inability to learn to utilize other tools and methods available to them.
 
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Sometimes you simply cannot change composition to get a better photo than one in that exact moment, whether in a controlled environment or not

If you rely on stubbornly trying to get every single detail right in your camera

See? Straight over your head.
 
Yes, it's all about balance but as far as I'm concerned that balance favours not having to spend an inordinate amount of time fixing what shouldn't need fixing in the first place. You can see distracting objects if you look for them just as you can see how shadows are falling.

Setting up for a shoot shouldn't take long if you're aware of your surroundings and if you utilise that time to get to know your subject it's going to be reflected in the final product and it's not wasted time. You don't get that opportunity in post.

No pressure OP… but if you get that first one right it can lead to years of business down the road. :)
 
See? Straight over your head.

And how, pray tell, does the bit you quoted indicate that anything is straight over my head, and what exactly is going straight over my head?

Your posts in response to me are amounting to little more than saying "hurr durr ur rong & dum"

You have provided nothing to refute or argue my points.
 
And how, pray tell, does the bit you quoted indicate that anything is straight over my head, and what exactly is going straight over my head?

Your posts in response to me are amounting to little more than saying "hurr durr ur rong & dum"

You have provided nothing to refute or argue my points.

That's not true. My points are going straight over your head.

Anyway, I'm done with this. Shoot crap in camera if you'd like :)
 
Y'know, if there's one thing I hate and will never understand, it's why people will begin an argument, then back out of it without ever backing up their points (when they make any).

bwana's made far more valid, considerable points than you ever did - and at the very least, he argued in a logical fashion. You kept trying to tackle why I was arguing rather than what I was arguing, so you're a terrible arguer.
Terrible. TERRIBLE. LIKE A LIVE ADAPTATION OF NINJA TURTLES TERRIBLE!
 
It doesn't matter. My points went (way) over your head.

Oh no, nanymous thinks I'm a terrible 'arguer'

/suicide.
 
So explain what your points were and how or why they went over my head.
If your points are so valid, it should be effortless for you to explain their brilliance instead of being a tit?
 
So explain what your points were and how or why they went over my head.
If your points are so valid, it should be effortless for you to explain their brilliance instead of being a tit?

Go back and read them :) Good night.
 
I did, and they only addressed why I was arguing, not what.
Seriously, why are people that get themselves into arguments this pathetic these days? Is it really that difficult to finish what you start?
 
I did, and they only addressed why I was arguing, not what.
Seriously, why are people that get themselves into arguments this pathetic these days? Is it really that difficult to finish what you start?

Whoosh :) Good night.
 
Okay then, how about this, I'll illustrate.

* R13 comes in, asks how much to charge for 'a shoot', only indicates it will be 'a family shoot', doesn't indicate where or under what circumstances, with what equipment, what time of day (or not), doesn't give any indication of what kind of control he'll have over the scene
* bwana makes "if you're spending more than 5min per photo you should have gotten it right in-camera" statement
* R13 indicates it'll be at their home, only indicates there will be 'some lights and screens'
* I argue that bwana's statement is only valid assuming whatever might cause you to spend more than 5min on a photo is something that's within your control and so could be fixed before taking the photo, else it might end up being easier to just fix it during editing, addressing the statement as a catch-all, as it was made at a point where it was essentially a catch-all - no venue had yet been mentioned when he made it and so there was no indication that the scene would consist only of controlled elements
* I list a few examples of where this kind of assumption would be applicable - things that are wholly normal and happen all the time
* You come and tell me that these things are 'out of the norm', as though they happen so infrequently as to never be worth anyone's consideration at all
* I list a few more examples of situations where the "get it right in camera" argument is flawed
* You get snide, start with your "over your head" crap, try to dictate to me what I'm busy arguing, opt to ignore the fact that I listed as a counter-opinion to bwana, not you, about his 'get it right in-camera' statement my points in a fashion that dictated what I was arguing, not what you wanted to argue
* I try to point out to you what it is I'm busy arguing, since you seem to be the one who's completely misunderstanding the content of my argument that technically doesn't even include you at that point
* You again try to dictate what it is I'm busy arguing, continuing to ignore the flow of conversation as well as what I specifically addressed, how and in what manner
* I ask you if you're even aware of why I quoted the part of bwana's post, the same one where he simultaneously asked 'where' the shoot would take place AND made the catch-all get-it-right-in-camera statement
* You tell me you are aware, and that I made it after R13 indicated where the shoot would be, ignoring the fact that I was specifically talking about the get-it-right-in-camera statement in the context of not knowing under what circumstances you're going to be shooting, and not necessarily being able to control those circumstances
* I point out that you are, in other words, conveniently missing or ignoring that I have pointed out several times what I'm arguing and why I'm arguing, and that I don't give a damn about the direction you're trying to dictate my argument into
* You tell me that I should then go and create a different thread to talk about the statement in general, ignoring the fact that my argument's contents are wholly contextually relevant even if R13 is shooting in a 'controlled environment', because even in a controlled environment things can happen or there can be circumstances that have to be dealt with that may be out of the photographer's control
* I point the aforementioned out
* bwana replies to me in a logical, reasonable fashion, brings forth points to counter-argue mine with
* I post examples of why I believe his points are not necessarily true
* You arbitrarily quote two lines of mine, continue with your "over your head" crap
* I ask you to indicate exactly how the two lines you quoted are any kind of indication of why anything you've presented is "over my head"
* You continue with your 'over your head' crap.

So either explain yourself, or bugger off?
 
You win you win! Go shoot crap in camera, please! I'm sure there'll be a random person jumping into R13's home shoot :p Leave the rest of us to the good stuff in camera.. Your superiority knows no bounds! You are the new Ansel Adams! :D

/buggering off
 
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