'What is murder?'

Nanfeishen said:
Kindly explain why my not wearing a seatbelt effects you as a fellow road user, or in any way endangers you or your family on the road.
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You're quite right: it doesn't. But what it DOES do is put an unreasonable, and entirely avoidable burden on the (always close to failing) safety net that we, the compliant fellow road users, count on for relief in the event of a crash. Which is ..not tantatmount to - IS, your refusing to take up your section of the communal load and making the rest of us pay for it. Which is unsporting as hell.

And, kindasorta bringing it back to the gist of what this thread is originally about: it's about intent, actions, consequences ..and culpability.
 
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LillPienkPawny said:
The problem with your line of thought is , when you are in an accident and you have a serious injury due to you not wearing a safety belt maybe you get disabled for life you will still want to claim from the Road Accident fund or the state will have to find a foster home for your kids, if such an event occurs the state is also involveed as is every tax payer.
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The RAF, is not viable, from a slightly old article (Feb 2009)
the fund "remains in a precarious financial position, with a significant actuarial liability and about 297 000 cases still unprocessed"
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http://www.moneyweb.co.za/mw/view/mw/en/page33218?oid=270037&sn=Detail
With so many unprocessed cases, who will ever benefit from it, its a useless endeavour.
Provisions have been made in my will in the event of major injury that requires life support, as everybody should do in a will anyway.
The state can finally do something positive with the tax, instead of lining their damn pockets.
 
Nerfherder said:
You also sap up the medical aid, hog the ambulances, clog up the road with your dead body and waste tax payers money. The state takes responsibility for your stupidity... even though you don't !
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I pay for medical aid, so i would be entitled to it, just as i would be entitled to my ambulance.
We have so many bodies "clogging" our roads from "responsible road users", whats one more.
The gauvament wastes more money than i ever would in the same amount of time it takes to clear an accident.
 
bdt said:
Which is ..not tantatmount to - IS, your refusing to take up your section of the communal load and making the rest of us pay for it. Which is unsporting as hell.
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What do mean by my section of the communal load?
Are you suggesting that I am meant to have some sort of affinity, or responsibilty to the community in some way or the other?
 
Some people really go out of their way to win that Darwin Award...
 
Nanfeishen said:
Kindly explain why my not wearing a seatbelt effects you as a fellow road user, or in any way endangers you or your family on the road.
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^^^ right here, sport; that's a statement of community if ever I saw one.

Nanfeishen said:
What do mean by my section of the communal load?
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I mean you being out there in charge (and hopefully ALWAYS in control of) a somewhere around 1.5 ton potentially lethal device.
Are you suggesting that I am meant to have some sort of affinity, or responsibilty to the community in some way or the other?
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I don't have to suggest a DAMN thing, you already acknowledged it for us. :cool:
 
Nanfeishen said:
LOL :D

Some people like to argue for things, some against things, and sometimes I just enjoy an argument. :p
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Fair enough. :) I didn't think you'd willingly deprive your kids of a father (if you have any). There are plenty of idiots on the road who can do that for you.
 
Nanfeishen said:
Some people like to argue for things, some against things, and sometimes I just enjoy an argument. :p
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I'm reading this-here engagement not as a battle (of wits) but more as a device to explore the logic/playing devil's advocate/you just feeling like an ornery cuss and wanting to grumble.

(there's a BIG "get off my lawn" cloud hanging over you...) :p
 
Nanfeishen said:
Why?
I am not advocating reckless driving , drunken driving, nor am I endangering any other road users by my personal choice.


Kindly explain why my not wearing a seatbelt effects you as a fellow road user, or in any way endangers you or your family on the road.
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Okay, here's my argument/POV. Get in a car, get in the back seat let your mates drive. Don't put your seatbelt on in the back seat. Get involved in a head on accident. You will be flung forward and hit the person in front of you and quite possibly kill them with the force. If you don't want to wear a helmet on a bike your perogative, but very dangerous. However it is vastly different from not wearing a seat belt. Even if in the car on your own and don't have a seat belt on you can cause damage to other people. If you're flung through the windscreen into another car etc etc.
 
Two men drive in two cars. Both of them have a 4yo daughter on the back seat not strapped in a safety seat.

One man's tire burst accidentily. The car crashes. The girl is dead. He is found guilty of manslaughter and is thrown in jail with some ass-rapists and murderers and the worst scum mankind has to offer. He is incarcerated for the rest of his life.

The other man's tire did not burst. He was seen by a traffic official and was fined an X-amount - A mere slap on the wrist.

Both are of the same moral fibre, but one is in jail sharing a cell with Bubba and is ass-raped every night.

They say the Justice system is fair. Where's the equality here?
 
RetroBok said:
Okay, here's my argument/POV. Get in a car, get in the back seat let your mates drive. Don't put your seatbelt on in the back seat. Get involved in a head on accident. You will be flung forward and hit the person in front of you and quite possibly kill them with the force.
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Happened once, broke my nose on the head rest, didnt kill the driver, but personally did want to kill him afterwards.
Now i always take my own car.

RetroBok said:
Even if in the car on your own and don't have a seat belt on
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Cracked a few ribs with my seatbelt on, T-boned an idiot who pulled out of an intersection in front of a parked truck.
Moral of story of recovery, dont get stoned to alleviate pain and then watch Cheech and Chong videos. :eek: Laughter is not always the best medicine.
 
Nanfeishen said:
Cracked a few ribs with my seatbelt on, T-boned an idiot who pulled out of an intersection in front of a parked truck.
Moral of story of recovery, dont get stoned to alleviate pain and then watch Cheech and Chong videos. :eek: Laughter is not always the best medicine.
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:D
 
With regards to all the posts above regarding the Father being fined for not having the kids strapped in with belts and everything else that has been mentioned above regarding this incident, I may be incorrect but when I read the article describing the incident, it was stated that it took place on a road on HIS farm, not a public road, while approaching the farm gate. If this is indeed the case, the Road Traffic Act is not applicable at all and no fines can be issued. This makes the whole safety belt issue a moot point ITO punishment that should be levied against the father as is being called for from certain sectors, (Other forums)

As for the case of Culpable Homicide, which is death caused through negligence, that case would be opened and investigated due to the tragic deaths of these kids, not because of the fact that a motor vehicle was involved in terms of the Road Traffic Act.

Just my 5 cents worth because I heard someone flush a chain.... :)
 
Here is the article:

20 May 2009, 06:51
Father drives over both his children: report
By Caryn Dolley

A traumatised father who police say accidentally drove over and killed his two children moments after he saw them falling out of his bakkie is receiving counselling with his wife.

Jan-Hendrik van der Merwe, who is former Springbok captain Corné Krige's brother-in-law, drove over his children, one-year-old Phillip and four-year-old Kirsten, on Monday on his farm in Victoria-West near Murraysburg.

A culpable homicide case is now being investigated.

Yesterday, police spokesperson Malcolm Pojie said Van der Merwe and his wife had been "obviously very shaken" by what had happened. "They are very traumatised. We have organised trauma counselling for them. They have no other children," he said.

Pojie said the accident happened about 3pm on Monday.

"(Van der Merwe) was driving his 4x4 bakkie on a gravel road. The two children were sitting next to him. As he got to a slight bend in the road, one of the children apparently opened the door and both fell out. They landed under the rear wheels," he said.

Van der Merwe immediately stopped his bakkie and got out. Pojie said he realised that the children were dead.

He said officers were investigating whether the children had been secured with a seatbelt, how they were positioned and whether the doors of the bakkie had been locked.

A culpable homicide case was opened, and Pojie said a senior State prosecutor would review the matter.

---------------------- ends article

I feel for this man and his family, because it was a horrible freak accident.

This man knows he made a fatal mistake.

The mistake he made was:

- he made a rational choice to ignore basic safety guidelines

- what road he was on or what vehicle he drove is beside the point at this stage

- adults understand velocity and impact and know what the consequences can be

- parents know that children and cardoor fiddeling is a possible safety issue
 
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Just to clear up a few things: Murder requires intention, which is not present here, so all talk of it in connection with a charge for the father is moot.

SA law does recognise culpable homicide, which is based on reasonable foreseeability of the death. (whether it was reasonably foreseeable. If it was reasonably foreseen and the driver carried on regardless, then a charge of murder could still succeed)

Usually in cases of negligence such as this, the courts, whatever the finding, will be lenient when it comes to sentencing, given the mitigating circumstances.

@Nanfeishen(although I am sure you are playing Devil's advocate here): As mentioned above, if you don't wear a seatbelt, you lead to insurance premiums being higher (not just your own)and run the risk of flying through your windscreen and killing me in the car into which you crash.

As for a father not ensuring that a child is wearing a seatbelt- that is even worse. You are charged with the responsibility of looking after minor children that are yours (through birth or marriage or adoption or whatever). You might not want to belt up, but you have to ensure your kids do.

Also, if it is correct,as mentioned above, that it is impossible to belt up two children in the front of a single cab bakkie, then the driver should not have taken his kids out in the bakkie in the first place -farm road or not, and on his property or not.

The end.
 
Just buckle up man! It may seem like a schlep but it can save your life.
 
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