What should a minimum wage be?

[noxibox]

I think it's very easy for the privileged to talk. Chances are you'll never be stuck in a job where wages race to the bottom. That guy's getting R75 now. Take away minimum wage and he might be lucky if get's much of anything, and with no labour law he'll be working every hour he's awake until his employer kills him, then replaces him with another disposable piece of equipment.

It'll just make illegal immigrants who will work for R50 per day get the jobs, as they have no legal recourse being here illegally.

But no legitimate business can employ those people.

 

[Devill]

The market determines the wage If there is an over supply of a certain skill set (or lack of any skills), they will get paid less.

There will always be those who willing to take advantage but when you think about it that doesn't justify government intervention in the labour market. There are very few people, even in SA, who would be willing to work for less than R1500. Any one who would be willing to pay less would be very lucky to get anyone of any sort of quality. There will always be someone willing to pay more for experience and ability.

So, sure you'll probably always have someone who is doing a really good job for far less than they deserve but thats because there will always be dummies. Legislating to try and stop exploitation is like banning cars because there will always be people who don't bother to look both ways before crossing the road. You're disadvantaging everyone to protect a few.

Large scale exploitation is only going to happen when the majority of employers are willing to exploit people - a situation I don't think we have in SA.

Like they could not possibly have "fixed" bread prices and "cheated" the whole population of SA? .... O wait.

You make valid points but a completely free economy will not work better than a mostly free economy in SA (in my opinion).

We do need a minimum wage but we need to buit the labour unions as they cause nothing but trouble on a grand scale.

Ps my idea of minimum wage is +- R1500 / month. For full time.

 

[Nick333]

I think it's very easy for the privileged to talk. Chances are you'll never be stuck in a job where wages race to the bottom. That guy's getting R75 now. Take away minimum wage and he might be lucky if get's much of anything, and with no labour law he'll be working every hour he's awake until his employer kills him, then replaces him with another disposable piece of equipment.


But no legitimate business can employ those people.

Right, because all businesses are run by Mr Scrooge.

 

[Hard Rain]

Naturally the minimum wage should be R17,000 per month, that way everyone employed will be in the top 10% income bracket! Of course, the other 90% of people who are priced out of the labour market will just have to manage with subsistence farming.

(Please note this is sarcasm. I am, however, heartened by the fact that so many posters are against a minimum wage and realize that it prices people out of the labour market altogether.)

 

[Hard Rain]

Ps my idea of minimum wage is +- R1500 / month. For full time.

With real employment around 40% what happens if someone who is unskilled is happy to work for less?

 

[noxibox]

It's not by chance that China, India and Asia in general are experiencing a massive influx of investment. First, we need to get everyone jobs, from there, give all the kids amazing education, after that, you've build the foundation of something that will pretty develop of it's own. ATM, south africa has no tech companies, and the work force ask too much so... we have to decide what we want our economy to focus on... Minimum wage doesn't even make life better. Food prices will go up ten fold, property will go up (since there's more willing buyers), and what does this mean? Well, that R4000 minimum wage will pretty much equal a R1000 salary...

I agree that unfortunately people actually need to accept that they are going to have to sacrifice themselves, possibly even their children, in order to build the economy. It may be a necessary step. Of course that's easy for me to say because I'm not one those who will be making that particular sacrifice. And this forum is full of people who are themselves not willing to make a personal sacrifice to develop South Africa. An example would be those who get educated here, then run away to another country because they're looking out for themselves.

China is a perfect example though of a place where employers pretty much literally murdered their employees for profit. So we have to decide how far we're willing to go, and how much we expect benefits to be passed down.

Ultimately though why have any laws to protect the weak, ignorant or stupid from exploitation? Why not allow financial advisors to steer their clients to the wrong investments because they make the advisor more money, allow creditors to deliberately get people into more debt than they can handle and so on?

 

[noxibox]

Right, because all businesses are run by Mr Scrooge.

You're incredibly naive if you think this kind of thing doesn't happen and does not happen widely.

 

[Nick333]

Here's the thing: there are plenty of companies (including bakeries) that pay all their employees way more than minimum wage. Why? Because they require skilled people. Only industries that require a lot of unskilled labour are in a position to exploit labourers. Do we really have much of that? Um, no. What we do have a lot unskilled labourers. So you can either have millions of unemployed unskilled people starving and a very few employed or a lot more people not starving. That's what more government interference equals. They should be concentrating on creating more skilled people instead.

 

[WilD_CaT]

Great to see many people understand the reality of minimum wage. Those who are in favour of it are lacking a certain understanding of economics, but I realise you simply want people to have better lives. To you I say, you must remember we who are against minimum wage also want people to have better lives, we just disagree on how we go about it.

Minimum wage ONLY protects those who's earnings increase from it, and they get this at the expense of those who lose their jobs or who are unable to get jobs.

 

[Sarakael]

I think it's very easy for the privileged to talk. Chances are you'll never be stuck in a job where wages race to the bottom. That guy's getting R75 now. Take away minimum wage and he might be lucky if get's much of anything, and with no labour law he'll be working every hour he's awake until his employer kills him, then replaces him with another disposable piece of equipment.

You, just like our politicians, have no clue about macro economics. Lets increase the minimum wage then, lets make it R150. That's going to give this poor dude earning R75 a 100% increase right?

Wrong! He is going to be out of a job!

Every time minimum wage goes up people lose jobs. Minimum wage hurts the people it's trying to protect - the people with the least skills. Its no coincidence that our highest unemployment is among the youth - the people with the least skills.

 

[Nick333]

I agree that unfortunately people actually need to accept that they are going to have to sacrifice themselves, possibly even their children, in order to build the economy. It may be a necessary step. Of course that's easy for me to say because I'm not one those who will be making that particular sacrifice. And this forum is full of people who are themselves not willing to make a personal sacrifice to develop South Africa. An example would be those who get educated here, then run away to another country because they're looking out for themselves.

China is a perfect example though of a place where employers pretty much literally murdered their employees for profit. So we have to decide how far we're willing to go, and how much we expect benefits to be passed down.

Ultimately though why have any laws to protect the weak, ignorant or stupid from exploitation? Why not allow financial advisors to steer their clients to the wrong investments because they make the advisor more money, allow creditors to deliberately get people into more debt than they can handle and so on?

Ok, so how bad must the alternative be if people are willing to work under these conditions? Business is not responsible for the base conditions people find themselves in that make them willing to sell their labour so cheaply. Whatever business is offering betters over all living conditions or people would stay where they are.

Having said that, I have no problems with enforcing worker safety and conditions. Any situation where people are being murdered falls under governments jurisdiction. People have a right to a certain amount of rest. No one is advocating slavery. The examples you are siting are basically human rights abuses and not an issue of labour law.

 

[JungleBoy]

You, just like our politicians, have no clue about macro economics. Lets increase the minimum wage then, lets make it R150. That's going to give this poor dude earning R75 a 100% increase right?

Wrong! He is going to be out of a job!

Every time minimum wage goes up people lose jobs. Minimum wage hurts the people it's trying to protect - the people with the least skills. Its no coincidence that our highest unemployment is among the youth - the people with the least skills.

You do understand that the pay for some jobs is so low at the moment they are not even worth the effort. That is why there is so much unemployment. Employment just for the sake of the work getting done isn't the point. People work because they need to survive on what they earn not because they have to work. If the pay is too low then most don't even bother to look for work. What they do instead is resort to stealing and robbing. High unemployment and high crime rate usually go together.

 

[Hard Rain]

You do understand that the pay for some jobs is so low at the moment they are not even worth the effort.

That's your own subjective opinion. To someone with nothing some money is better than none. Unemployment in S.A. is high because the bulk of the population is unskilled and the price of their labour is low because of their relative productivity, but government disincentizives their employment through various policies such as minimum wages and regulations.

How can we get people's productivity to improve? They need to become skilled at what they do. How do they do that? By working in the first place. Once the bulk of people in S.A. are working and gaining productivity there'll be competition in the market for labour which will raise wage rates. It seems like you want to put the cart before the horse.

 

[Sarakael]

You do understand that the pay for some jobs is so low at the moment they are not even worth the effort. That is why there is so much unemployment. Employment just for the sake of the work getting done isn't the point. People work because they need to survive on what they earn not because they have to work. If the pay is too low then most don't even bother to look for work. What they do instead is resort to stealing and robbing. High unemployment and high crime rate usually go together.

Thats not why there is so much unemployment. Unemployment is because of oppressive labour laws (including minimum wage, but mainly the inability to fire people who are lazy or bad at their job), unions (also makes it very difficult to fire a person who is useless, and requests unreasonable salary increases) and government red tape aka "compliance".

But lets pretend that you are right. That does not change the fact that if minimum wage is R75 an hour and an employer can only afford to pay R65 an hour and there is someone out there who wants to work for that R65 rather than sit at home and get nothing then he does not have the option of working and remains unemployed.

Once again minimum wage destroys jobs. To say anything else is a lie.

 

[Messugga]

In the UK, for example, I've personally met construction workers doing very well for themselves. Why? Because there is a limited amount of people doing that sort of work. Hell, I knew a window washer that did UKP500-UKP1000 per day.

 

[Nick333]

You do understand that the pay for some jobs is so low at the moment they are not even worth the effort. That is why there is so much unemployment. Employment just for the sake of the work getting done isn't the point. People work because they need to survive on what they earn not because they have to work. If the pay is too low then most don't even bother to look for work. What they do instead is resort to stealing and robbing. High unemployment and high crime rate usually go together.

Thanks for voicing the opinion of the ignorant masses. If a wage was being offered that no one was willing to accept the employer would have to raise it till someone was willing to accept it or go out of business. There are very few jobs going unfilled because the wages are too low.

What an evil justification of evil.

 

[The Philosopher]

Bureaucrats are retarded and are not qualified to make decisions for the whole country pertaining to their respective portfolios. It can only be a bureaucrat who comes up with a retarded idea like minimum wage. But what is even worse, is that they perpetuate it even though all the empirical evidence from all countries incontrovertibly shows that minimum wage destroys jobs and reduces employment and also it increases wage rates at the higher skilled levels because of reduces supply of labour, which filters up the employment ladder.

However if you dont want to believe the evidence, you can use deductive logic to evaluate the efficacy of minimum wage laws. Clearly the bureaucrats view it form this angle. They think that if they tell all employers to pay all labourers under say R100, that the company will then automatically raise all the labourers wages to that level. However, if you view it from the companies perspective, the company will have to release those labourers and then use the other employees to cover those areas. The company will most likely have to reshuffle the company and pay the remaining labourers more to do the extra work. Hence the wage increase is at the expense of the people now unemployed.

Clearly this is stupid. Why governments still persist with this retarded logic is beyond comprehension.

 

[Hard Rain]

Clearly this is stupid. Why governments still persist with this retarded logic is beyond comprehension.

Because it has the illusion of "helping" without the government having to do much, and they get lobbied with a lot of union money and clout to prop up these barriers to entry.

 

[Devill]

With real employment around 40% what happens if someone who is unskilled is happy to work for less?

I see your point. And yes he/she should be able to.

BUT the cmpany should just get him to sign a little contract saying that he understands etc etc.

 

[WilD_CaT]

Its a general problem with collectavism. The interest of the group (Unionised employees) are put ahead of the interests of the unemployed or individuals who don't have a representative group.