WhatsApp vs Signal vs Telegram

That does not invalidate your point or your question though, and I agree that a broader and deeper analysis should be done.
Though I do concede that this is actually quite a difficult thing.

Wire, Wickr, Threema, Session, Tox, Jami, there are a lot of these things.
Mainstream adoption is really IMO the main concern around a messenger service. If you use something to communicate with a small group of like-minded folk that's one thing, but WhatsApp became the de-facto standard in South Africa

IMO (as much as I prefer Signal), Telegram is the closest competitor with a shot of being able to do that.
 
Though I do concede that this is actually quite a difficult thing.

Wire, Wickr, Threema, Session, Tox, Jami, there are a lot of these things.
Mainstream adoption is really IMO the main concern around a messenger service. If you use something to communicate with a small group of like-minded folk that's one thing, but WhatsApp became the de-facto standard in South Africa

IMO (as much as I prefer Signal), Telegram is the closest competitor with a shot of being able to do that.
You could be right, mainstream adoption is quite important, and "features" trump security any day. People are generally only concerned about security and privacy when there's a breach, and even then it's quite short lived.

Edit: I still don't use Telegram, never had the need for it.
 
You could be right, mainstream adoption is quite important, and "features" trump security any day. People are generally only concerned about security and privacy when there's a breach, and even then it's quite short lived.
The funny thing is that the mainstream (unfounded) worry is that WhatsApp / Facebook can read your messages. They actually can't, it's just the metadata and other info that they collect.

Telegram, while they don't collect any other info from your phone, actually *can* read your messages if they want to.

I'm not saying that this is either a good or a bad thing, but I think people are making a choice from mistaken assumptions.
 
Regardless of whatever feature anyone is using, the one thing that I like from Telegram is that all their app code is open source, so at least independent developers can verify that the E2EE is valid.

Unfortunately not the same can be said about their server code...
 
@Jan - the article seemed to indicate that Viber didn't have E2EE, but according to Wikipedia it has been implemented since 2016, using "the same concepts as the Signal protocol": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viber#Security
I know the statement where I disqualify a bunch of apps doesn't differentiate between security and privacy, but in Viber's case it's on the basis of their App Privacy Labels that I lumped them in with WeChat, Skype, and the rest.

According to Viber's App Privacy Labels on the App Store, it actually collects certain personally identifying information with the purpose to track you across other apps and websites - specifically coarse location data and device IDs.

It's likely that this tracking happens because Viber has third-party advertising. These exact same two bits of personally identifying data (coarse location and device ID) are disclosed under the "Data Linked to You" category for use in third-party advertising.
 
I know the statement where I disqualify a bunch of apps doesn't differentiate between security and privacy, but in Viber's case it's on the basis of their App Privacy Labels that I lumped them in with WeChat, Skype, and the rest.

According to Viber's App Privacy Labels on the App Store, it actually collects certain personally identifying information with the purpose to track you across other apps and websites - specifically coarse location data and device IDs.

It's likely that this tracking happens because Viber has third-party advertising. These exact same two bits of personally identifying data (coarse location and device ID) are disclosed under the "Data Linked to You" category for use in third-party advertising.
Fair enough. That could be the case. I'm on Android so I don't see those labels. I'm also not quite sure what "device ID" means in this case.

Regarding location. Viber also has an (optional) feature to include your location as an attachment to each message you send, though why they'd want to include that option is beyond me.

Rakuten isn't really an advertising company, and Viber makes money by acting kind of like Skype used to be - making the facility to "call out", i.e. place normal phone calls from within the app.

IMO, due to the E2EE available on Viber, I'd rate it not worse than WhatsApp, but its very low market penetration here in SA makes it probably not worth including. I've got it installed to talk to overseas friends who use it, but only one other Saffer randomly on my contact list.
 
Fair enough. That could be the case. I'm on Android so I don't see those labels. I'm also not quite sure what "device ID" means in this case.

Regarding location. Viber also has an (optional) feature to include your location as an attachment to each message you send, though why they'd want to include that option is beyond me.

Rakuten isn't really an advertising company, and Viber makes money by acting kind of like Skype used to be - making the facility to "call out", i.e. place normal phone calls from within the app.

IMO, due to the E2EE available on Viber, I'd rate it not worse than WhatsApp, but its very low market penetration here in SA makes it probably not worth including. I've got it installed to talk to overseas friends who use it, but only one other Saffer randomly on my contact list.
Device ID could be one of four things:
ICCID (the SIM card unique identifier)
IMEI (The handset unique identifier)
IMSI (the unique cellphone number)
Any form of eID (even ephemeral) that uniquely identifies the end user / LPA
 
The funny thing is that the mainstream (unfounded) worry is that WhatsApp / Facebook can read your messages. They actually can't, it's just the metadata and other info that they collect.

Telegram, while they don't collect any other info from your phone, actually *can* read your messages if they want to.

I'm not saying that this is either a good or a bad thing, but I think people are making a choice from mistaken assumptions.

At the risk of cross-posting (there are many, many theads), just leaving this here:

 
My totally unbiased mini-review of Telegram, compared with WhatsApp and Signal with which I am more familiar. @SauRoNZA inspired me to at least try it out. This is simply my impression as a user combined with a not too thorough read of what is available on their website r.e. privacy and security.

  • The default colour scheme is hard on the eyes. I do like that you can change it.
  • Instead of the same default blank person icon that you see in WhatsApp when someone hasn't got a profile picture, in Telegram it's the person's initials in a coloured circle. These colours are strange and diverse, it looks weird when I'm used to something more homogeneous. (Signal suffers from this as well.)
  • Appearance settings are however much more configurable than WhatsApp and Signal. I think it's a plus, others might not care about faffing with this kind of setting.
  • Stickers. Hated them in 2015, still hate them, and the app seems to encourage use. I like the fact that you can disable recommendations and stop animations from continuously playing though.
  • I like the granularity available in setting permissions for groups. However I don't like the fact that you can't see a breakdown of who has seen your message and who hasn't. WhatsApp and Signal both do this, so it seems a fairly glaring omission.
  • The fact that "secret chats" aren't available on the desktop is annoying. I understand that this is due to the architecture of the service being different between WhatsApp/Signal and Telegram, but it's a minor minus for me.
  • Regarding chat histories.
    One thing that always irked me with WhatsApp was the fact that you either had to keep the entire chat history forever, or clear the entire thing. There was no option to retain the last say 6 months (other than going back and deleting old messages manually, ain't nobody got time for that). Signal gets this right, you can configure it to prune messages older than a certain amount of time, or just by a certain number of messages, or to keep them forever if you choose. Perfect.
    Telegram both wins and loses in this regard. I like the fact that it can clear old messages off your device, even as soon as after 3 days, but there doesn't seem to be a facility to trim your "cloud stored" messages as such.
  • Telegram's ability to have multiple accounts in the same app is cool. WhatsApp and Signal both fail on that one. Would be especially useful if you have phone numbers in multiple countries as many expats do, so you can maintain contacts using both numbers.
  • I also like the fact that you can use the same account say from your phone and tablet. Always annoyed me that WhatsApp couldn't do this.

I want to like Telegram. Really I do. The fact that they can decrypt everything that I keep in their "cloud" makes me just a little uncomfortable though. Perhaps they can but don't, and they have more discretion than Swiss Bankers, but I have no way to verify that.

The "unlimited" cloud storage is also a bit suspicious to me, especially when you can transfer large-ish files via Telegram. It's got to get paid for somehow.

I think I will reserve final judgement until I know more about how they plan to fund the thing. Once the monetisation strategy becomes clearer, I may re-evaluate.
 
My totally unbiased mini-review of Telegram, compared with WhatsApp and Signal with which I am more familiar. @SauRoNZA inspired me to at least try it out. This is simply my impression as a user combined with a not too thorough read of what is available on their website r.e. privacy and security.

  • The default colour scheme is hard on the eyes. I do like that you can change it.
  • Instead of the same default blank person icon that you see in WhatsApp when someone hasn't got a profile picture, in Telegram it's the person's initials in a coloured circle. These colours are strange and diverse, it looks weird when I'm used to something more homogeneous. (Signal suffers from this as well.)
  • Appearance settings are however much more configurable than WhatsApp and Signal. I think it's a plus, others might not care about faffing with this kind of setting.
  • Stickers. Hated them in 2015, still hate them, and the app seems to encourage use. I like the fact that you can disable recommendations and stop animations from continuously playing though.
  • I like the granularity available in setting permissions for groups. However I don't like the fact that you can't see a breakdown of who has seen your message and who hasn't. WhatsApp and Signal both do this, so it seems a fairly glaring omission.
  • The fact that "secret chats" aren't available on the desktop is annoying. I understand that this is due to the architecture of the service being different between WhatsApp/Signal and Telegram, but it's a minor minus for me.
  • Regarding chat histories.
    One thing that always irked me with WhatsApp was the fact that you either had to keep the entire chat history forever, or clear the entire thing. There was no option to retain the last say 6 months (other than going back and deleting old messages manually, ain't nobody got time for that). Signal gets this right, you can configure it to prune messages older than a certain amount of time, or just by a certain number of messages, or to keep them forever if you choose. Perfect.
    Telegram both wins and loses in this regard. I like the fact that it can clear old messages off your device, even as soon as after 3 days, but there doesn't seem to be a facility to trim your "cloud stored" messages as such.
  • Telegram's ability to have multiple accounts in the same app is cool. WhatsApp and Signal both fail on that one. Would be especially useful if you have phone numbers in multiple countries as many expats do, so you can maintain contacts using both numbers.
  • I also like the fact that you can use the same account say from your phone and tablet. Always annoyed me that WhatsApp couldn't do this.

I want to like Telegram. Really I do. The fact that they can decrypt everything that I keep in their "cloud" makes me just a little uncomfortable though. Perhaps they can but don't, and they have more discretion than Swiss Bankers, but I have no way to verify that.

The "unlimited" cloud storage is also a bit suspicious to me, especially when you can transfer large-ish files via Telegram. It's got to get paid for somehow.

I think I will reserve final judgement until I know more about how they plan to fund the thing. Once the monetisation strategy becomes clearer, I may re-evaluate.
FTFY

Too much use of 'I', 'hate', 'irk' and then 'final judgement'.
 
How can you hate the stickers in Telegram? They've got a wider, more interesting selection than WhatsApp. They've got zombie unicorns! I can love any app that has Zombie unicorns.
 
FTFY

Too much use of 'I', 'hate', 'irk' and then 'final judgement'.
The inclusion of the phrase "totally unbiased" was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek. The review is of course completely my own subjective opinion.

How can you hate the stickers in Telegram? They've got a wider, more interesting selection than WhatsApp. They've got zombie unicorns! I can love any app that has Zombie unicorns.
I hate stickers. Call me an old grumpy hermit if you will. After I fled Telegram five years ago, imagine my disappointment to learn that WhatsApp would be getting stickers too. Signal also seems to have caved.

They're not as in-your-face as with Telegram though.
 
I hate stickers. Call me an old grumpy hermit if you will. After I fled Telegram five years ago, imagine my disappointment to learn that WhatsApp would be getting stickers too. Signal also seems to have caved.
I'll join you in your unpopular opinion. Stickers are hot garbage.

Except Lilo & Stitch ones. Stitch is acceptable.
 
My totally unbiased mini-review of Telegram, compared with WhatsApp and Signal with which I am more familiar. @SauRoNZA inspired me to at least try it out. This is simply my impression as a user combined with a not too thorough read of what is available on their website r.e. privacy and security.

Kudos to you for being objective and open minded in trying it and doing so quite thoroughly as well.

[*]The default colour scheme is hard on the eyes. I do like that you can change it.

Android or iOS? I’ve never had an issue with the default so I wonder if Android is maybe different?

I do find Signal a little cleaner and prettier overall however.

[*]Instead of the same default blank person icon that you see in WhatsApp when someone hasn't got a profile picture, in Telegram it's the person's initials in a coloured circle. These colours are strange and diverse, it looks weird when I'm used to something more homogeneous. (Signal suffers from this as well.)

I consider this a very clever accessibility feature which helps me more easily distinguish people. Especially in group chats.

[*]Stickers. Hated them in 2015, still hate them, and the app seems to encourage use. I like the fact that you can disable recommendations and stop animations from continuously playing though.

I don’t personally use them but don’t mind seeing them. And as you say there are some options to customise it a little.

[*]I like the granularity available in setting permissions for groups. However I don't like the fact that you can't see a breakdown of who has seen your message and who hasn't. WhatsApp and Signal both do this, so it seems a fairly glaring omission.

I also find that quite odd.

[*]The fact that "secret chats" aren't available on the desktop is annoying. I understand that this is due to the architecture of the service being different between WhatsApp/Signal and Telegram, but it's a minor minus for me.

Get a better desktop. They are supported in MacOS so I can’t only imagine they can’t be fully implemented elsewhere and therefore to keep their promises of it being secret it’s not available.

Also it’s only ever one device to another specifically for security. If I start or accept a Secret Chat from my Mac it stays only there and doesn’t exist on my phone.

[*]Regarding chat histories.
One thing that always irked me with WhatsApp was the fact that you either had to keep the entire chat history forever, or clear the entire thing. There was no option to retain the last say 6 months (other than going back and deleting old messages manually, ain't nobody got time for that). Signal gets this right, you can configure it to prune messages older than a certain amount of time, or just by a certain number of messages, or to keep them forever if you choose. Perfect.
Telegram both wins and loses in this regard. I like the fact that it can clear old messages off your device, even as soon as after 3 days, but there doesn't seem to be a facility to trim your "cloud stored" messages as such.

Not a problem for me at all, I tend to always flush my conversations on all these things every so often and never back them up when moving devices.

You could somewhat get around it using the Saved Messages function.

[*]Telegram's ability to have multiple accounts in the same app is cool. WhatsApp and Signal both fail on that one. Would be especially useful if you have phone numbers in multiple countries as many expats do, so you can maintain contacts using both numbers.

Not a feature I need any more but an excellent one to have it I ever do again.

[*]I also like the fact that you can use the same account say from your phone and tablet. Always annoyed me that WhatsApp couldn't do this.

Always been my biggest annoyance with WhatsApp is the whole phone relay function. Telegram works natively and without my phone even being on, on every signal device I own.

I want to like Telegram. Really I do. The fact that they can decrypt everything that I keep in their "cloud" makes me just a little uncomfortable though. Perhaps they can but don't, and they have more discretion than Swiss Bankers, but I have no way to verify that.

The "unlimited" cloud storage is also a bit suspicious to me, especially when you can transfer large-ish files via Telegram. It's got to get paid for somehow.

I think I will reserve final judgement until I know more about how they plan to fund the thing. Once the monetisation strategy becomes clearer, I may re-evaluate.

One certainly can understand this and it’s not my place to tell you to get over it or not be paranoid.

I believe it’s still privately funded at present with plans for ad based revenue this year, or possibly paid for access like WhatsApp once was.

I would not partake in a monthly subscription plan, but would happily throw $10 at them once off.
 
Android or iOS?
Android. Good point about that though, I've seen that many things just look nicer in iOS.

Get a better desktop.
You're starting to sound like a more typical forumite there ;-)

I was on Windows and I didn't find a way to even start a secret chat. It could be due to the fact that I was using the "portable" version, but I'm not sure. I figured it would do, and save me having to install and clutter my registry with more stuff, if I was only going to use it temporarily. I'm not really bothered enough to check further.

While I understand about secret chats being strictly device-to-device, I do find it a bit annoying. It's a bit of a disincentive to use a more private means to communicate. Not a huge deal I guess.

I would not partake in a monthly subscription plan, but would happily throw $10 at them once off.

I would actually gladly pay a monthly subscription, if I ultimately decide to stick around. I think the service they offer is worth at least $3-$5 per month. I pay about $3 for my email monthly, and this is of similar value if not more.

I'd sooner pay for a messenger like this than for Netflix or Spotify or some such. Particularly if it gives them a sustainable, profitable business model, to keep them independent from other big tech firms.

But that's just me. I guess everyone must evaluate the value for their own use case.

In the end I suspect that it's going to be the network effect that wins out. There are about five times as many Telegram users globally as Signal, or roughly double in my contact list. I'll probably end up like you, having to run both Telegram and Signal, though I'll default to Signal where the contact in question has it, rather than the other way round.
 
My concerns are rather more ideological and political rather than worries about privacy and security.

In any case, this is all software, so there's no such thing as 100% secure or private. I'm reluctantly resigned to the reality that governnents and others can/will have sight of my messaging should they so wish.

What's driving my current move away from the Big Tech platforms is their contamination by wokery. Very simply, their malevolent political religion relies for its power on numbers of users, and I don't want to have myself counted in their userbase.

At the end of January, WhatsApp will be off all my systems. By the end of 1Q21 I plan to be completely Google-free.
 
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